Breaking the Twilight Cloak?

[Fallenturtle]

Oh... there are people using the DoC Demon Prince? He's utter crap.

Last game under the old book my supreme sorceress headshotted a nurgle doc demon prince with the life taker

how about Obsidian blade, cloak.. you ignore their 1+ armor and straight to the 5+ ward, you can probably sneak the wounds needed that way.

[Demetrius]

Oh... there are people using the DoC Demon Prince? He's utter crap.

Last game under the old book my supreme sorceress headshotted a nurgle doc demon prince with the life taker

how about Obsidian blade, cloak.. you ignore their 1+ armor and straight to the 5+ ward, you can probably sneak the wounds needed that way.

Gotta wound first, which at s4 can be an issue. Take Obsidian Blade, can't wound. Take Chillblade, cant get past armour saves. #darkelfproblems

[Trax]

Oh... there are people using the DoC Demon Prince? He's utter crap.

Yeah, we have this daemon player who doesn't want to put an all nurgle+some tzeentch/jugs/cannon list on the table *all* the time, and I'm grateful for it, since it starts to bore the f' out of me.

[marcopollo]

I wonder how this cheese-ball tactic would go over.

D. Lord with ogre blade *and* a Lance with C of T. on a D. Peg -- (I know, I know, he can't actually "use" the lance). I get that. But your opponent would see the lance and not expect the ogre blade until it was "revealed". And so the sight of the lance would induce charges because opponents would charge the above mentioned D. Lord to mitigate the perceived effect of the soon to be lance charge.

thoughts? -- Playing dirty?

[Sulla]

Oh... there are people using the DoC Demon Prince? He's utter crap.

Slaaneshi lvl4 with minimal toys hiding behind the soul grinders seems like it would work fine to me.

What is it that makes them utter crap?

[Jvh792]

@ MarcoPollo Sounds like a decent investment of 6 points. However Cloak and Ogre blade can't go together. Too many points.

[T.D.]

@ MarcoPollo Sounds like a decent investment of 6 points. However Cloak and Ogre blade can't go together. Too many points.

50 + 40 - its the Giant Blade (60) that cant be combined.

[T.D.]

Oh... there are people using the DoC Demon Prince? He's utter crap.

Last game under the old book my supreme sorceress headshotted a nurgle doc demon prince with the life taker

how about Obsidian blade, cloak.. you ignore their 1+ armor and straight to the 5+ ward, you can probably sneak the wounds needed that way.

Gotta wound first, which at s4 can be an issue. Take Obsidian Blade, can't wound. Take Chillblade, cant get past armour saves. #darkelfproblems

This is why I like Dreadlords mounted on Manti's or Dragons

A Demon Prince has an Initiative of 9 so no Dreadlord is going to get rerolls to hit no matter what weapon he wields.

Except the Gold Sigil Sword

But I would prefer something with a little more bite

[Dalamar]

Oh... there are people using the DoC Demon Prince? He's utter crap.

Slaaneshi lvl4 with minimal toys hiding behind the soul grinders seems like it would work fine to me.

What is it that makes them utter crap?

They have no armor of the WoC DP, and suffer from instability instead of being unbreakable like the WoC DP.
They're too fragile for their points in a demon army.

[Ichiyo1821]

Does the wording work? Cloak of Twillight plus Warrior's Bane? Killing something outright is atill the target but U want to throw this in. One missed save can reduce even a Vampire lord to 1 attack. I really wan to use this xloak for monster hunting/character killer but at 50 points it leaves little room for both a ward save a and a magic weapon.

[Ehakir]

You can use a potion of speed....

[Darklady]

WoC DP is only I8.

[Demetrius]

WoC DP is only I8.

Yep, I double checked this the other night. So Dreadlords have rerolls against them So there is a decent chance one with the Cloak and Ogre Blade will kill the Demon Prince before he gets to strike (it gets even better if said Prince doesn't have a 1+ or MON).

[Omnichron]

Take Obsidian Blade, can't wound.

Debuff toughness or buff strength!

Take Chillblade, cant get past armour saves.

Buff strength! (Although, then you could just as well take something else than the chillblade).

#darkelfproblems

Good! It's stupid to have some easy allround builds/units that deals with everything *cough*SkullcrushersDemigriffsMournfangsBeastsofNurgleSkullcannon*cough*

[Capricious]

The WoC DP is a bit of an issue.


About grinding out a DP with the 1++ reroll and 4++, I’m not too sure about that:
Lord: 1+ dawnstone, 4++, sword of might, dark Pegasus:
4 attacks = 2 2/9 hits
= 1 8/27 wounds
= 70/243 (0.2881) wounds after saves
+1/81 dark steed wounds = 0.3 wounds per phase

The DP
5 attacks = 4 1/6 hits
= 3 17/36 wounds
= 125/288 (0.434) wounds after saves.
Soulfeeder then nets it 0.0723 wounds

Thus the DP loses a net 0.3-0.07 = 0.23 wounds
While the lord loses 0.434 wounds per turn.
Thus after an average 6.9 turns the lord bites the dust while he would need an average 17.4 turns to kill the DP

Now a lord, less mobile but with OTS
Lord: 1+ dawnstone, 4++, halberd, OTS, cold one:
4 attacks = 2 2/9 hits
= 1 8/27 wounds (35/54)
= 280/729 (0.3841) wounds after saves
+4/243 dark steed wounds = 0.4 wounds per phase
Still less than the DP even when excluding soul feeder


Black Amulet
However we have a better way than the dawnstone (though it is great on a dark pegasus master). With the black amulet (BA) we can turn the DP's strength back on itself while circumventing its two biggest defences the 5+ to hit and 1+ save. Of course he has more wounds and still a ward save versus the amulet. The ward save 5+ can be cancelled pretty decently with the OTS changing its chance of making the save from 1/3 to 1/9. Thus our damage output needs to be enough to overcome this 1/9 chance of making the save, its extra wound and the wounds it might heal with soul feeder.

I tried several combinations (some without OTS, but these didn’t improve it) and ended up with something like this:
1+, 4++(BA), greatsword (outperforms halberds and sword of might), OTS, coldone or pegaus+dragon helm.
The Pegasus is faster and grants t4 (only matters while buffing/defbuffing) while the coldone is cheaper, slower but itp and stupid.

lets see what happens:
The DP attacks:
And deals does 1.7361 wounds on the lord after armour saves.
0.868 pass the BA and wound the lord , 0.868 bounce back to the DP of which 0.7715 are not saved.
Now the lord attacks dealing 0.4609 wounds, add steed attacks and we reach 0.4774 wounds.

Total wounds lost by the DP is now 0.4774 + 0.7715 = 1.2489 wounds, the DP soulfeeds for 0.1446 putting it back at 1.1042.
Thus each turn the Lord loses 0.868 wounds and the DP 1.1042 wounds, the Lord is clearly in the lead but he starts at a disadvantage for having only 3 wounds. In the end it takes an average 3.6 combat turns to kill the DP, while only 3.5 to kill the Lord.

I think this is our best chance for a straight fight between a DP and our Lords.
Magic can quite easily shift the balance, however I believe it is somewhat in our favour. Any offensive buffs to the DP will also increase its damage output against itself while those on the lord will only benefit the lord. The same counts for defensive boosts and debufs.

Interesting: if you have the dragon helm and the black amulet I think you can also bounce the 2++ successful saves.
Thus (in a totally ridiculous scenario) if somehow you can get a naked Lord with the helm, BA and OTS in combat with a DP and it uses its breath weapon it could burn itself to cinders in one turn: +/- 3 wounds from breath plus some from its regular attacks.

And feel free to double check the calculations, with all the rerols and items a mistake is easily made.

[Clockwork]

Last game under the old book my supreme sorceress headshotted a nurgle doc demon prince with the life taker

I miss Lifetaker It would be great on a Cloak Dark Steed Supreme Sorceress these days...

Speaking of WoC vs DoC Daemon Prince, I always felt that the DoC variant gets a hard time because it isn't a braindead WTFOP auto-include like its WoC counterpart.

[Dalamar]

It's simply horribly inferior to equivalent greater demon of the respective god.

While they both have access to same gifts and same ward save, DP loses out on T and W where with equal lack of protection both have, more T and W is an amazing advantage.