Black guard or executioner?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

DoomDuck
Slave (off the Altar)
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Black guard or executioner?

Post by DoomDuck »

who is better? I know every one is going to say they have different roles but if its one or the other in your army who do you bring? I played VS high elf's last night (1000) and I assumed that he was going to bring sword-masters because on paper they sound like the way to go but after talking to him he likes white lions better. this makes me wonder about our special infantry. On paper black guard sound like the way to go but now I don't know. S4 just cant chop down as many hard troops and S6. so what has your experience been? I'm still proxying my black guard/executioners and want to know what I will get more mileage out of before I buy and build them all. I play with a large group of gamers and every army is represented, I also focus on tournament play. thank you for helping a young druchii general :)
MichaelMac
Trainee Warrior
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:21 pm

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by MichaelMac »

Executioners are better against Elites, Monsters, Cavalry and Monstrous Cavalry. Black Guard are better against Infantry. Execs also give you a character hunter w/ Killing Blow. Both are the same survivability but Execs are cheaper.

Clear win here for the Execs.
Canadianguy
Dark Rider
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:25 pm

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Canadianguy »

The only time i can see an advantage for bg is in some msu style lists where you want that mini tarpit to line up multi charges.
User avatar
Fallenturtle
Shade
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:43 am

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Fallenturtle »

It's two different units with two different jobs. The difference between the two is black guard can stick around in their fight to the last man, exes on the other hand, are subject to a turn of bad rolling (no re-rolls because ASF cancels the ASL) and although they are nasty, can wiff and you find yourself without your 300+ unit thanks to static rez.
Golan
Warrior
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Golan »

DoomDuck, if U need infantry block good against most infantry (like Swordmasters and/or White Lions, etc.), go with mentioned Black Guard.
When this troops fighting each other: BG > SM > Exes > WL
and always try to keep your troops 2 models wider than enemy unit.

last thing in this case: BG and Exes are more vulnerable to shooting than SM and WL
User avatar
Gerner
Noble
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:28 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Gerner »

If I would play to win I would always take the Executioners, they are cheaper and all around better. S6 with re-roll 1 to wound is amazing. That said Black Guards are in no way bad. 2 s4 hit with ASF and re-roll 1 to wound, ItP and Stubborn for 15 is great, specially in smaller units. Yesterday they won big against a large unit of savage orcs, holding on to the fight until my unit of Witch Elves could flank them.
User avatar
Haagrum
PhD in Dark Magic
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:54 am
Location: The depths of the Black Library

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Haagrum »

Black Guard are good all-rounders (S4, A2, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, ASF, rerolls against everyone all the time from Eternal Hatred). Executioners fill a hard-to-replace niche in our army lists (sustained high S). They're both T3 5+ AS infantry that bruise in a stiff wind.

Black Guard are excellent anchors, one of the few we have other than large Steadfast units. They'll slaughter nearly anything that isn't a monster or heavy cavalry, and they'll do so reliably, without running in most instances. They struggle against heavy cavalry unless you get them the Razor Standard or buff them to cut through armour.

Executioners live up to their names, cheaper and with the prospect of character-hunting thrown in, but without any rerolls to hit except against High Elves (where they will often not survive long enough to swing unless there's 28 or more of them). One failed Fear test and Executioners become very unreliable indeed.

In the end, go with what you prefer - a reliable infantry block that will hold against almost anything and massacre infantry, or a less-reliable and cheaper infantry block that will slaughter heavy enemy units.
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."
User avatar
Daeron
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3975
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Contact:

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Daeron »

It also depends on what units you will be placing alongside of the Executioner or Black Guard block.

The pro's of the Executioner block should be self evident: cheaper, higher strength (which amounts to a lot!) and killing blow. I don't think you can go wrong with them.

The Black Guards are a more delicate choice in army composition, I believe… even though they are "easier" to use once in the game. With a razor standard, they will cut through most units. Sometimes at a cost in casualties on their own side, but that cost is made bearable thanks to stubborn and the fact that they have 2 attacks: if the enemy kills half the unit, you still have more than half the attacks left. This isn't so for executioners, who will tumble down to a "not enough attacks to be significant" too quickly.
The Black Guard will also permit more "tricks". Small frontage fights wouldn't bother them as much, partly because of the 2A's. You can put characters in there to make them immune to psychology. And a single Strength buff from power of darkness or beast magic could turn this unit into a "grind everything to bits" unit.
When using Black Guards, you may struggle more against "really tough" models, like high toughness and 1+ armour save models. You need to complement your army with something to deal with this… and magic would be a good way or perhaps some RBTs.
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
User avatar
Kheel
Noble
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:04 am
Location: Sweden - without any polar bears!
Contact:

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Kheel »

Easilly the executioners. They are over all performing better and are cheaper. You can take more bodies to counter their poor defense aganst spells and shooting.
//Kheel

Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
User avatar
Prince daerlythe
Black Guard
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:17 am
Location: The Spire of Malice

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Prince daerlythe »

The execs are physically stronger and cheaper, but not by much. It's only a 5:4 ratio in favour of the execs for cost, which means a unit of 30 execs will get you 24 BG. The only significant difference I have seen between those numbers where Elite infantry are concerned is the ability to absorb more hits before the unit becomes useless, and as mentioned earlier the BG already excel in that category by virtue of their special rules and 2A per model.

The way I see it, it will come down to total army composition and style of play. If you want your units to be able to take on anything solo, the Execs' higher strength and cheaper cost will quite advantageous. If you want your army to work as a team, the BG's versatility and psychological resilience will give you a serious hand up over the Execs. It all breaks down as follows:

Execs: Anti-Armour, can deal with characters. Specialize in dealing with heavy and monstrous cavalry. Strength buffers usually redundant. Highest risk of a bad combat round from no ASF re-rolls.
BG: Anvil unit. 2A per model shreds through anything without an AS > 4+. Perfect for taking on enemy anvils, Fast Cav (if they can catch them) and Elite infantry. Strength buffers useful. Reliable combat results.

Let's not forget that CoK can also deal with the Cavalry problem, so if you got a unit of them in the army, I'd say it's best to take the BG for versatility.
Blood stains the snow. Glory to Khaine!
User avatar
Darkmark
Beastmaster
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:22 am

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Darkmark »

Gerner wrote:If I would play to win I would always take the Executioners, they are cheaper and all around better.


Out of curiosity when do you play to lose?

Against HE the BG's EH reroll every round and I6 is a valuable thing.

I think the Exe's are easier to insert into a list, whereas the BG require building around. As mentioned, they're very different units, and having 30 models of each in your collection is no bad thing. :twisted:
User avatar
marcopollo
Assassin
Posts: 570
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:44 pm
Location: The thin edge of the wedge

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by marcopollo »

It's the "tricks" that you can use for BG that tip the scales for me. Small frontage "games" and B-R shrine/CoB amplify the stubborn anvil aspect. Whereas, B-R shrine/CoB tactics don't help Exe's and potentially harm them. If you look at the opportunity cost of a shrine/CoB in replacing the 15 models it takes up, you get better value in BG block than Exec.

1) 15 BG = 225 pts of saved space. Making a CoB a somewhat more palpable addition.
2) 15 Exe = 195 pts of saved space. The CoB become a little more expensive then.

So as deathstars begin to form, you are doing better with BG. Besides, you want as many exe's in fighting positions as possible at all times (well almost all). Whereas, you do not always need maximum BG in fighting positions to have an significant influence on the game.

And so, to the OP question: As a starter unit, I would see how many anvils I have, and how many can-openers I have and decided then. For me, I do BG before Exe. There are alot of other ways to open cans with DE.
User avatar
Gerner
Noble
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:28 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Gerner »

Darkmark wrote:
Gerner wrote:If I would play to win I would always take the Executioners, they are cheaper and all around better.


Out of curiosity when do you play to lose?

Never. ;)

But most times I just play to have a laugh and a good time with my friends, putting that before winning.
It probably came out a bit wrong, but I'm not in a hurry to win when I just want to have fun with a friend. :)
User avatar
Poisonblade
Beastmaster
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:48 pm
Location: USA

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Poisonblade »

Darkmark wrote:I think the Exe's are easier to insert into a list, whereas the BG require building around. As mentioned, they're very different units, and having 30 models of each in your collection is no bad thing. :twisted:


I agree with this.

If I'm not taking a Cauldron, then Executioners are the clear winner imo... and I'm a Black Guard fan.

With the Cauldron nearby, Black Guard perform better against 3+ saves and higher, whereas Executioners still kill more 1+ or 2+ saves. I'm not sure how the Razor Standard would effect this, probably make it very close against 2+ saves.

So basically... if you play a lot of Chaos (who doesn't), Executioners are the safer pick. Black Guard are still a nasty unit, but you need to plan around them more in order to get their true potential.
Hate is my weapon.
User avatar
Rabidnid
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: The Tower of Dust

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Rabidnid »

DoomDuck wrote:who is better? I know every one is going to say they have different roles but if its one or the other in your army who do you bring? I played VS high elf's last night (1000) and I assumed that he was going to bring sword-masters because on paper they sound like the way to go but after talking to him he likes white lions better. this makes me wonder about our special infantry. On paper black guard sound like the way to go but now I don't know. S4 just cant chop down as many hard troops and S6. so what has your experience been? I'm still proxying my black guard/executioners and want to know what I will get more mileage out of before I buy and build them all. I play with a large group of gamers and every army is represented, I also focus on tournament play. thank you for helping a young druchii general :)



The exes with their killing blow and S-6 are very solid, and still being 12 points very cheap compared to the rest of the army. Witches and exes are the way I would go with infantry, CoCs and dark riders as cavalry. The new hyrda is a gorgeous model and still pretty handy on the battlefield, if only as a firepower sink. Black guard really don't have a role any more without CoB to boost their stats. Corsairs have also lost the boost from the CoB so the hitting power of the exes is greater still in comparison

I'm still getting my head around the way things work, but corsairs with handbows, witches, exes, CoCs and dark riders are the standout, with hydras and warlocks having lots of potential.
"Luck is the residue of design"
User avatar
Nostromo
Cold One Knight
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:16 am
Location: Ironspike

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Nostromo »

Agreed with what seems to be the majority. If it is one or the other - executioners. They are a great buy with ASF. Even with no rerolls, they are probably the most effective infantry for the points, and deal with what is normally our biggest crutch - a lack of higher strength attacks. Killing Blow is a great psychological tool as well. If the other army plays a bus or deathstar you can bet they will be pretty hesitant to throw their 'all eggs in one basket unit' into a unit that can delete their characters with a few choice rolls.

That said, I'm going to be including both for a while, as the black guard are such a useful blender to have. Might not be as cost effective down to the line as witches or exes, but despite what some internet wisdom seems to implicitly suggest, not every army is chaos warriors, and they still have great utility. I'm going to run a unit of 15 with no command and will rest easy knowing I can throw them at most things unsupported and have them stick there, or have them guard a flank. Despite their increased cost, they are still a versatile unit.
User avatar
Duke_Mantis
Slave on the Altar
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:56 am
Location: Collingwood, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Black gaurd or executioner?

Post by Duke_Mantis »

Thanks for this thread guys, as a brand new Dark Elf player this was my first big question after reading the new book.

Why not both? :D

I am planning to have a medium sized unit of Black Guard and a huge unit of Executioners, each block flanking my mega unit of Witches+Cauldron... the Black guard can pin something down long enough for a cavalry flank move, and the Executioners will hopefully just mulch anything they touch. Throw a BSB somewhere amongst them and that should be a decent battle line imho. Vulnerability to shooting is my only concern.
Warhammer 40k and Warmachine Video Battle Reports:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheDorklord ... ature=mhee
MangoPunch
Noble
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:34 pm
Location: Somewhere secret somewhere safe

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by MangoPunch »

BSB with execs IMHO, witches imune to psychology and BG stubborn.
-JGB

Group 42 - Harkyl Anroc - Shade
WS: 5 / S: 2 / T: 2 / D: 5 / I: 5
Equipment: Staff, Throwing Knives
Inventory: Mysterious Map
Skills: Awareness, Basic Stealth, Defensive Fighting
Harkonnen
Shade
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:26 am

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by Harkonnen »

Well, I've fielded black guard alot in last edition. And in my opinion they were bad then. Guess what, they are even worse now. More expensive and nothing changed except rerolls 1 on wounding, woopdihoo, when you often need 4's or more to wound this is not so significant.

Edit: T.D. corrected me on that they are still special and not rare (double checked in my RB ;p), hmm where did i get that from, think it was some rumour at some point..;p Well, doesn't matter anyway for the argument of them being useless and overpriced still ^^

Some people say they are good as "infantry killers". Well, nowhere near as good as witches or some other toys we have...

I don't think competitive lists will contain any black guard.

Exectioners on the other hand, are a WHOLE other story now...
Last edited by Harkonnen on Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
T.D.
Killed by Khorne
Killed by Khorne
Posts: 2818
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pm
Location: Hinterlands of Khuresh; The Lost City of the Angels

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by T.D. »

Special not Rare.
OldHammer Advanced Ruleset
- Adding Tactical Depth to Your Favourite Tabletop Wargame
User avatar
Kheel
Noble
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:04 am
Location: Sweden - without any polar bears!
Contact:

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by Kheel »

I played four games just for the heck of it to decide what I want to go for with my list. I like hordes, and that is what I will end up using. These lists are for 2000 points, and is part of a campaign at my local club.

Dragon Lord
BSB Death Hag on Cauldron
Level 2 dark
level 1 life
5 Dark Riders
34 witch elves
40 executioners

Dragon Lord
BSB Death Hag on Cauldron
Level 2 dark
level 1 life
5 Dark Riders
34 witch elves
32 Black Guards

So identical lists, only change is executioners and black guards. Both units are 510 points each.
Two games vs Lizardmen, with a slann that the first game vs executioners didn't get more than two spells going, and in the second game vs black guard list ended up in a portal after a bad miscast in turn 3.
But I felt like I had more ooph with the executioners, especially when I landed frenzy on them from the cauldron. Wyssans Wildform is so good on saurus warriors, with St and To 5. Black Guards could not handle them.

Then I played two games against High Elves, a list with two frost phoenixes and phoenix guard horde of 40 models, 2 level 2 life wizards.
The black guards out performed the executioners here, with the reroll to hit, and 3+ to wound. But they die as easilly to shooting, and there fore it is still better with more bodies.

If executioners and black guards were the same prize points, I would always take black guards. But hence the 3 points, and in this case I can afford 8 more executioner bodies than what I can with black guards, I will always take executioners.

Victory to the executioners over Black Guards after trying them out like this.
//Kheel

Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
User avatar
Red...
Generalissimo
Posts: 3750
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Baltimore

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by Red... »

Ironically, given my love of execs in the old book, I'm actually leaning a bit more towards Black Guard now.

Why?

- Blackguard have stubborn latently - execs can only get it through steadfast now (given the cauldron no longer gives stubborn to them anymore).
- Execs now don't get re-rolls to hit. That means that you lose 1/3 of their attacks against WS4 or below models, and a whopping 50% against WS5 or above models. If they fail a fear test during close combat (something that the ITP blackguard can't do), then you're at WS1 and hitting on 5s, which means you'll lost a staggering 66% of your hits. Wounding on a 2 with re-rolls for 1s is all well and good, but only if you get that far...Blackguard, on the other hand, get re-rolls to hit in every round of combat, then get to re-roll 1s to wound, they also get an extra attack each. And they have ASF, which means they go first ahead of enemy characters, and even strike simultaneously against other ASF foes, whereas execs will get hit first by a lot more things (e.g. enemy characters, high elves, etc).

But this is all fairly moot - witch elves seem to me to be better than both: they cost less, are core, and can still do huge amounts of damage. Throw in a cauldron of blood and they have a 5+ Ward save, with re-rolls to wound and at I6 with ASF get to-roll most hits too (with posion to boot). Chuck in an assassin with ring of hotek or obsidian lode stone and you have a 2+ ward save against magic missiles and direct damage spells. They're frenzied, so get ITP until they lose it. Yes, they don't have stubborn either, but they're cheaper, so a bigger chance of keeping steadfast for longer...
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
User avatar
Demetrius
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1070
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by Demetrius »

Red... wrote:Ironically, given my love of execs in the old book, I'm actually leaning a bit more towards Black Guard now.

Why?.....


You just like to give the underdog a go, Red! I do the same.

I havn't used BG yet, as I've only had 5 games with the new book. But they have made it in to a couple of my theory lists that I need to try, and I think with Beasts or Shadows, they can fulfill a role and be very deadly. If you get Wyssans off on a block of 18-20 BG with the Razor Standard, shiz will get real. BG are definitely a unit that you need to build the rest of your army around, rather than something you tack on the end of a list. They also need some protection from missile fire, either through screens or target saturation.
User avatar
Killerk
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:56 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by Killerk »

Exes are more cost effective,aparat from stuborn our core makes good infantry meat grinders, making BG sub optimal.
Also known as Kanadian
Image
Image
Jabroniville
Warrior
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 7:01 am

Re: Black guard or executioner?

Post by Jabroniville »

If I can only choose one, I'm going with the Black Guard, whose protection against breaking (Ld 9 Stubborn is hard to beat, especially with a BSB or something) and extra attacks are often more useful. The higher points-cost brings it a BIT more even, but in an all-comers list, I think they're more useful (most enemies won't put a high-toughness unit against Executioners).

I would take BG against ANY army, because they'll probably always be useful- Execs have trouble against certain armies by contrast.
Post Reply