Combat sorceress?

[Crowmire]

I had a game last week against my good friends chaos warriors and after the game we were discussing about the game and our lists, what to change etc.
Couple of things came up:

I was using unit of 14 crossbows as my supreme sorceresses bunker, which my friend told he thinks is one of the weaknesses of my list. He thinks it's just so easy to destroy (with all the flying stuff he's got)and is tempting target, as I have my only mage and general in the unit. I think he's right, but unfortunately we don't have mages that can also do combat like chaos does(which I am really jealous of), so potential bunker units options are a bit limited.

Also, he said he's really afraid that I had the black amulet on the SS(which I didn't), because that would make his characters kill themselves.
My reasoning was that I don't want my SS to be in challenge, but since he can get to my bunker anyway, maybe...just maybe...

So the Idea came from some one mentioning lore of beasts and fencer's blades on SS in the another topic, so my new bunker unit:

20 bleakswords, musican, standard, Shrine in the unit and with SS, Fencers blades, black amulet and iron curse icon(this is because the only time I tried shrine, it was blasted to bits by hellcannon on turn one) and lore of beasts.
This does rely on getting the savage beast of horrors though.

So this would be more resilient unit, sorceress would be safe when needed, but could actually do combat too, and with a bit luck would be nasty in challenges. Why I have doubts is that the luck part comes in to play a bit too much here: getting the right spells, shine not getting shot to bits and getting the spells through.

So what do you think? Horrible idea, or should I give it a try?

[Calisson]

There have been already some mentions of sorc designed for combat on D.net, especially using Dark Lore.
- someone mentioned having 3 Lvl2 using dual Dark sig, inside a fighting block. Sure, they die young, but who cares? They are expendable.
- I suggested a CO-mounted Lvl2 with ToF, growing progressively to 10 wounds with soul stealer, and providing COK with +1S. More durable than most sorc.
- Another way to keep your sorc safe was mentioned in one shrine topic: make a bus, add shrine inside, muso & pennant take first rank with shrine, sorc is safe in 2nd rank as long as 2 R&F remain. That would make a solid anvil able to get in melee, not unlikely to be steadfast, with +1 Ld. Especially with Lore of Life, providing shrine with regen and regrowing its lost wounds with lore attribute.

[Cold73]

If your opponent uses a lot of flying stuff, then yeah a SS in your RXB can be easily taken out...problem is ..you don't want them in your melee units either...unless you equip your sorceress to withstand punishment.

Personally...I park my SS either in a small unit of RXB...or Spearman.... (have to admit i;m experimenting with a SS with my Warlocks)
But she almost never has any special protection...maybe wardsave for occasional miscast or snipe spells....

When my opponent fields a lot of flying units...i often even want them to go hunting my mage....because then i can spring my trap into motion to take them out quickly.
Keeping a small unit of corsairs back for just that purpuse is often wonderfull.

[Gerner]

I actual find the best protection to be mobility for my supreme sorceress. Mounting her on a Dark Pegasus or Dark steed, gives her a big advantage to outmanoeuvre the opponent. Often you can set up just behind another unit, so you are within his front arc and charge range - but there is no room for him to land with his flying character in your front.
Together with the Black Amulet and Soul Stealer she begins to get nasty.

[Daeron]

The crossbow bunker with a sorceress is indeed a weakness... or fragile power if you will. I've rarely fielded it myself, but seen it being fielded a couple of times. It always makes the unit a top priority target... and if it doesn't get panicked off the table, it certainly is blasted to bits or hacked to bits the next round. Bumping the unit to 20, and giving it a reroll on a panic test is a good way to ensure that it will take more effort to have the exact same situation.

So yes, putting the sorceress in another unit is a big help. A combat unit is a fair choice since it will remove the option of some chaff units charging it.... And thanks to ASF it may even prevent suicide charges.

I'm not overly fond of gearing a Sorceress for combat unless you consider the Sorceress expendable. The Black Amulet and soul stealer can make an interesting combination, but I find it dependent on too many "IFs" before it actually works. What if he only charges you with an uber killy lord? Sure, half his attacks bounce back, but he's still permitted to take a Ward save against the bounced wounds as far as I know. So you will still take more wounds than him and so the big question becomes: did you get Soul Stealer off before that combat, and did you get enough wounds from it?
In short: if you can pick the fight, when you're ready, then yes it can work. But if the opponent retains the initiative, then it's far less likely to succeed.

Boosting your sorceress with Lore of Beasts is interesting... but you're still a 1 attack model. I'm not sure if it will win you combats, and even if it can boost you to such stats, it's still a risk. And it brings you back to the "who has the initiative" gamble. If you can challenge him on your terms, then you might get a chance. But if you need to amplify your sorceress defensively, your magic phase is heavily dominated by trying to ensure her survival.

IMO, the best trick to learn is giving her either an escape plan or a unit that can protect her. And don't be afraid to deploy her in a different unit (say, an executioner unit) only to have her run out and join a skirmish unit or bunker later.

[Omnichron]

The way I see it, there are two ways to field a supreme sorceress.

- One is to have her in a bunker. Usually it was the spearmen that would do such a task quite nicely, but crossbowmen could also help out with that. You'd have to have good range with your spells (shadow) and make sure that you block and countercharge anything that comes within range so that she is the last thing in your army that will die. This can be hard if you get pressured on all fronts at the same time, but it's doable. The problem with this strategy is that the bunkers are quite expensive with the new AB.

- The other is to have her mobile and avoid combat entirely... with one exception where you use dark magic to get lots of wounds and the Black amulet to return the favour when he hits you and you manage those wards. To have her mobile, the pegasus is the best option in many cases, but if you want her safer when it comes to cannons and the like, you can field her on a dark steed and place her with warlocks or dark riders. This way it's extremely hard to catch up to your sorceress, and you can roam around in the battlefield quite easily... as long as you don't get shot down by lots of small ranged weapons. You can also field the sorceress with shades, which is quite mobile because of skirmish, although flying characters and MC might reach you then.

You can put close combat stuff on the sorceress to make her work in some ways, but it will always be half decent and easily dealt with against most good lists. I don't think the problem is fielding a sorceress on foot really, as long as you have a nice defensive and countercharge list going on. With RBTs and some strong close combat units that can stand back and wait for him to get closer, you should do absolutely fine. Just remember that the sorceress is the LAST thing you should lose if you play it out properly... blocking and countercharging anything that threatens her and her unit. It worked very well with the last AB, and I don't see why it won't work with this book (although the bunkers are more expensive now).

[Phierlihy]

I'm with Gerner on this one. A Dark Pegasus upgrade is a lot cheaper than a somewhat useless bunker unit and generally a lot safer too. Even while riding it she can join another unit and still fly away if something gets too close.

I personally believe that a single ST3 attack with no armor cannot under any circumstances be worth the effort of trying to make into a *fighty* wizard.

[Archamedius]

What about keeping a medusa or two close by for protection? The Chimera is only Initiative 2, and so the gaze will work wonders against it. To me, the army that comes to mind as the top army to threaten a sorceress like that with fliers on all sides is WoC Flying circus.

Also, the choice of bunker vs. Pegasus really comes down to gear choices right? if you take the sac dagger, then you are forcing yourself into a bunker to feed the dagger. Quite frankly I have been playing a sac dagger level 4 with dark, and it's amazing the power dice efficiency I get out of her. Between power of darkness, her +5 to cast and the relatively cheap spells, I find myself one dicing almost everything and still having power dice left over for my warlocks to soulblight targets.

[Crowmire]

The shrine bus was what I had in mind, only without lore of life. The problem with that is, that I feel the whole magic phase goes to making sure the one unit survives. I'd rather just not take SS at all then.
Also, I don't own any executioner or witch elf models, and due to current prices, I don't think I ever will. So I still roll with my trusty corsairs and warriors. This means that my lists need strength boosting augment spells, and so lore of shadow and lore of beasts are kinda my only options.

About protecting the bunker. You have to understand it's not some harpies or great eagles I'm having trouble with, it's lvl 4 nurgle demon prince and regenerating chimera with breath weapon. The chimera I can deal with, but DP is difficult to defend against, since it has spells that go through everything.

I guess I'll go with peggy sorc then. I was trying to avoid that, for modelling/budget/time schedule reasons, but another long conversion project it is.

I personally believe that a single ST3 attack with no armor cannot under any circumstances be worth the effort of trying to make into a *fighty* wizard.

Actually in my build it's majestic two(2) attacks. with WS10 and ASF. with wildform and savage beasts it would be 5 str 7 attacks, but that can be difficult to pull off.

[MangoPunch]

I guess I'll go with peggy sorc then. I was trying to avoid that, for modelling/budget/time schedule reasons, but another long conversion project it is.

I picked up one of the old SS on Dark Peg models on ebay for under $20 a month or so ago.

[Kurze]

Don't forget the lore of Beasts

[Drek]

Dark and the Amulet can be nasty. Use the Tome to make sure she gets Soul Stealer, then bump her wounds. If you can just add two or three, a DP shouldn't be able to kill her in one turn. Second turn he very well might kill himself. You may very well lose your wizard, but my guess is that will hurt you less than him losing a DP will hurt him.

[Fallenturtle]

I run my lvl 4 inside a 7x4 bunker of corsairs with dark, tome and 4++. Soul stealer, Word of pain, Power of darkness, etc all make excellent spells and the "bunker" she's in can also dish out the damage ( I run xhw). I've only lost her once so far in the 11 games I've played under the new book and that was only because she decided to go insane casting shroud and suck herself into the void...

Also, most people forget that you can cast soul stealer while still in combat as long as there is a unit within her sight that's not in combat. so DP tieing up your unit wont stop your sorc from getting back wounds as she tanks the DP for the whole game.

[Dalamar]

Next game I will be using a sorceress with Black Amulet, Tome of Furion and Other Trickster's Shard on a dark steed.

She can be a nasty surprise to any solo running monstrosities (DPs, Greater Demons... Tzeentch characters if I got to build some wounds first). After all, who will feel threatened by a single sorceress? More than once I had a demon land in her charge arc simply because it was the best spot and she's no threat.

[T.D.]

Next game I will be using a sorceress with Black Amulet, Tome of Furion and Other Trickster's Shard on a dark steed.

That's a nice build - you should add it to the compendium

[Crowmire]

I run my lvl 4 inside a 7x4 bunker of corsairs with dark, tome and 4++. Soul stealer, Word of pain, Power of darkness, etc all make excellent spells and the "bunker" she's in can also dish out the damage ( I run xhw). I've only lost her once so far in the 11 games I've played under the new book and that was only because she decided to go insane casting shroud and suck herself into the void...

I run my corsairs with same setup, and this might work for me too. I have game today and will give it a try.

Next game I will be using a sorceress with Black Amulet, Tome of Furion and Other Trickster's Shard on a dark steed.

She can be a nasty surprise to any solo running monstrosities (DPs, Greater Demons... Tzeentch characters if I got to build some wounds first). After all, who will feel threatened by a single sorceress? More than once I had a demon land in her charge arc simply because it was the best spot and she's no threat.

Nice build, black amulet and other trickster's shard is nasty combo.

[Fallenturtle]

Lore of Light also works in the same setup I use (been trying it out the past few games and it's amazing), just replace tome with scroll ( I only run the level 4 and warlocks) and go to town with things like Pha's, Time warp, and speed of light.. If you're really scared about failing a crucial test even with bsb/general, light of battle is amazing.. (also makes your unit "unbreakable" for the duration of the spell)