Countering CoB+RXB Shenanigans

[Archamedius]

So I played in a tournament this past weekend, and the best overall (I took 2nd best overall) player was a guy who took nothing but Darkshards and Bolt throwers and a cauldron of blood (with a few other things added in, I think a level 4 metal, etc.). I did not play him as it was only a three round event and I ended up on a different table. But I got to thinking when I saw him obliterate his competition in 40 minutes, how would you counter what many would say (myself included) a heavy shooty + CoB list abusing the poor wording for the Cauldron Rules allowing rerolls of all to wound failures.

What would you do to counter that list were you ever to line up across it? Regardless of my feelings or anyone else's for that matter, until it gets FAQ'd one way or the other, you will see it at tournaments, so being able to be prepared for it is a necessity.

Thoughts?

[Gidean]

Blow away his CoB with Empire Great Cannons, Steamtanks, Dwarf cannons, Stone Throwers, Ironblasters, Skullcannons, Warp Lightning Cannons,...you seeing a theme here?

[Archamedius]

Blow away his CoB with Empire Great Cannons, Steamtanks, Dwarf cannons, Stone Throwers, Ironblasters, Skullcannons, Warp Lightning Cannons,...you seeing a theme here?

I was actually looking at it from a mirror match where you show up with your dark elf tournament list and see it across the table. What other tools do we have in our army book that can work towards countering that list and how do you approach it?

[Dalamar]

Turn 2 charge with a peg master to break the cauldron, crippling his tactic.

It would be very important to win first turn (I don't remember last time I did) and march everything full speed ahead down one flank. Gunlines tend to be very wide and unable to apply their entire strength in one spot. Even better if half your army vanguards to put pressure on him from turn 1. Yes, those vanguarding units will die fast, but even a single dark rider stands a good chance of breaking a bolt thrower thanks to their pretty armor.

I'm assuming he only won because his opponents were not ready for it but even with the cauldron darkshards remain rather underwhelming. The issue is not with wounding but with hitting.
If he faced a competent chaos or empire player he'd be in deep trouble with all the 1+ saves and cannons on the other side.

[Undeadcatd]

let's see : 25 Darkshards with COB , horde formation so 21 can shoot.(about 650 points!)
COK will lose about 3 wounds , our infantry troops : about 9-10 wounds per turn .
ya, it's good against T3 army with poor AS

DE Solution :

(1)Peg master (with cloak) might render it's usefulness for two turns.
However dont expect to break it ...(a simple challenge will draw the first turn then master will lose after that)

(2)magic (black horror, Dweller, or a simple miasma )

(3)shooting (4 RBT will cause 1-2 wounds to COB per turn...)

(4) CC : that unit may hold( become 7 ranks) and counter charge.. so prepare for it

[Ehakir]

Stuff your army behind any piece of LoS blocking terrain and make the battle end in a draw unless he comes to get you. In other words, render his shooting useless.

[nevaenuffbass]

I have come across this as well. It is very powerful. I managed to take out the COB with the 3 out of 4 reapers that could see it in two turns. However, by that time the damage had been done. You can put a reaper next to the COB and then still have the darkshards within 6" of the cauldron.

In regard to the 1+ armour troops, missile combat build will still fit in multiple reapers, and given that the crew have murderous prowess, they still re-roll to wound (if close to the cauldron).
I also haven't run the math, but 1+ troops may not do so well against a charge from the cauldron unit (assume witches). There would be a lot of saves - and with razor standard AND the right magic buff (wissans wildform, okkams) or de-buff (miasma) I'm not sure they'd win combat.

I'm not so sure the pegmaster is an awesome solution. He would need to take a lot of saves from the darkshards.

[Daeron]

Well you're not going to find an easy way to beat something that's hideously overpowered because of a rule abuse. The best solution would be to step to the tournament organization and explain the rule was misinterpreted, you could probably use Dnet as a reference. "Hey, even this army's community says it's wrong to interpret it that way!"
Of course, that kills his entire list concept... But my pity doesn't stretch that far.

What would kill his shooting though? The weakness of the RXBs is hit modifiers. They rely on numbers to become effective. Miasma, chillwind, transmutation of lead should all be effective at reducing the damage output considerably. Then focus on taking out the RBTs.. By whatever means.

A fun thing to try:
- If he fields his RXBs wider than 10 models wide... charge him in the flank opposite to the RBTs and whatever else he tries to keep "in the bubble". Without parry save, and only limited attacks, the flank charge should be a win. If he wants to get rid of whatever you have in the flank, he might reform. This forces his COB to move... And along goes the bubble. Unfortunately, as the COB has a 100mm base depth, you only gain 10mm and need a wider formation for this to be effective.
- The above tactic would still force him to reform for his next turn of shooting. If he does, then his bubble now really moved quite a couple of inches. ... and you get a -1 to hit on shooting.
- The unit can be panicked. It doesn't get the immune to psychology because the majority of the models don't have it. Forcing panic tests at Ld 8 might work. Considering the poor save those RXBs have, it should be feasable.
- If he frenzies the unit to save himself from that, bait it. Abuse the charge arc royally. Only 1 model in the unit should see your baiters for the test to be mandatory, but this means only 1 model can shoot that baiting unit.

[nevaenuffbass]

Is it really "rule abuse"?

I don't think it is. Yes the players who run this are maximising the cauldron buff. But essentially they are simply taking a very shooty army. Even without the cauldron, 2 x 20 RXBs and 4 reapers is tough to counter. I am not so sure that the rerolls to wound make that much difference.

[Searinox Nagharha]

The rule states that every model within 6" wuth the MP special rule may reroll all failed to wound rolls
RAW people take is that you may reroll everything (Melee, Shootin and Magic) aslong as the model has the rule
RAI it's an extention of the PM rule so that you may reroll all fail To Wound attempts in Close Combat and not jus 1's

hence 'rule abuse' :3

Beeing able to reroll all your failed To Wound rolls is a huge bonus.

[Calisson]

Well, as the analysis here in D.net shows,
rerolling 'to wound' for RXB shooting and magic is RAW, albeit probably not RAI. This cannot be criticized as rule abuse, but rather loophole exploitation.
If RBT 'to wound' are also rerolled, this is a rule abuse, as a careful reading of RAW shows it is not allowed.

[marcopollo]

Whether the CoB + shooting is rule abuse or not. The tourney allowed it and opponents had to break it down. So with another DE list (if I could tailor it to beat this I would use):

1) Corsairs with rhb as first wave to block line of sight and SDC to bounce those rxb's. A big long line 1x20 with more fragile units protected behind it. As the corsairs die, holes open up to charge out of. -- small chariot holes to hit and withstand Stand and Shoot.

2) MSU CoK busting up a flank (3x5 cheap with a little boost to the third unit). include a pegmaster with cloak to hit the most important parts of his line first.

3) magic that will shut his own down and buff your own lines while they make their way to the battle front.

[Dyvim tvar]

A corsair screen is great if your second wave is infantry or chariots. But if you have the models, a better could be to simply take a whole load of knights and charge on turn 2. You will take some casualties, but you will close the gap faster.

[Gidean]

Well, as the analysis here in D.net shows,
rerolling 'to wound' for RXB shooting and magic is RAW, albeit probably not RAI. This cannot be criticized as rule abuse, but rather loophole exploitation.
If RBT 'to wound' are also rerolled, this is a rule abuse, as a careful reading of RAW shows it is not allowed.

Doesn't that unit have MP rule?

[Kargan daemonclaw]

Yes the all cav list has traditionally been the counter to heavy shooting.

loads of dark riders with shields and characters on dark steeds vanguard and either charge turn 1 if you lose first turn or charge turn 2 from the flank having moved out of arc on turn 1.

followed up by waves of chariots and knights.

loads of good magic support to debuff the shooting, bubble phas protection would probably be the best, but lots of other contenders.

[Ehakir]

5x Master, Lance, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Dark Steed - 485 pts. Run them individually and you can kill the enemy RBT's/lock the enemy in combat right in turn 2. This way he has just one turn of shooting at all individual targets. Also, you have 1500 more points to play with (2000 pts right?)

[Searinox Nagharha]

Can you even take 5 hero choices at 2000?

[Holt]

@ Searinox Naghara: You can have as many characters as you can fit into the 25% allowance for heroes.

[Archamedius]

Excellent discussion here folks, lets keep it up. The tournament (and most of the ones I go to in the midwest) was 2400 points. I am also keen to see common tactics for use against this type of army for common components to a standard tournament list. I.E. the pegmaster with cloak. A horde of witch elves with cauldron or a horde of executioners, etc. It does little good to tailor a list to defeat it if that list is not competitive against other army lists out there.

[marcopollo]

Personally, I dislike gunline games. Too much dice rolling and not alot of movement. Feels like Yahtzee. So I tend to make lists that punish gunlines as a priority in my thinking. It is not intentional, but rather a sub-conscious approach. The lists are still and "all-comers" type, but with prejudice against gunlines.

[Heartsbane]

Pegasus characters come into their own here, although you could probably achieve similar results with heroes on dark steeds with some careful positioning. It's fairly easy to park him 16" away from the crossbows, with a friendly unit between him and the crossbows (say a couple of units of dark riders side on to minimise their depth, keeping them outside of the 12" killzone). The interviening unit provides the character with hard cover, rendering him virtually immune to BS based shooting, but thanks to fly he can still charge without restriction. So long as you declare your charge with him first, the foe can either stand and shoot at -3 to hit (with an extra -1 for long range and probably another -1 for multi shot), which won't do much and won't allow then to S&S against any other charges, or not even try to shoot him down and get tied up in combat.

Cold one chariots also work well, as with their toughness 5 they are remarkably resiliant.

Finally, the list does force their army to clump up. A fast moving sorceress down the flank could wreak havok with a vortex - even purple sun would kill off the RBTs and you should be able to use the darkshards to boost the range, virtually guaranteeing it hits them!