Are Cold One Knights OP?

[van Awful]

He's probably talking about big unit of CoK with hydra banner BSB and Cauldron combo. (Which was more then 600points if i remember correctly, only tried it once).

[Daeron]

I'm not sure about "nerfed" point for point, but it made the unit more difficult to use. The problem in the past was that they lacked attacks... this didn't exactly increase. This means they remain frail to any attack of sufficient strength (S5) or anything coming in mass numbers. In my experience, damage tends to come either in sufficient strength, sufficient numbers or both. And every casualty is a severe hit on their damage output.
The only way to counter this is by placing a character in the unit.

[Omnichron]

He's probably talking about big unit of CoK with hydra banner BSB and Cauldron combo. (Which was more then 600points if i remember correctly, only tried it once).

Well, if we talk about that Hydra BSB in and add the old Cauldron to get the unit to deal maximum damage, it's more about the other stuff than the unit itself! We can get 2 fully fleshed out CoK units today instead of 1 with all those things easily... or a 10 strong warlock unit to help out that CoK unit.

We have lost some of those "Pump up the unit to be insane", but that goes for everything we have if we think of the old CoB and/or the hydra banner. The units themselves are mostly stronger than before with a few exceptions.

[van Awful]

oh i agree with you! I just figured he meant that. If you use the same amount of points for magic, monster of extra unit support you'd still be breaking most of the same units as you did with the units and "upgrades"in the old book.

[Daeron]

Well, for what it's worth: I think the COK bus with a combat character (rather than the fragile Hydra Banner BSB) has become better in this edition. And ... I may actually end up preferring such a setup over the Hydra Banner BSB.

[Vilicate]

I'd really like to give a unit a try that has a Sorceress in it for Power of Darkness. S5 seems pretty badass.

[xFallenx]

My 2.5K army has this unit:
Sorceress, lvl2, Ring of Hotek, Cold one & Beasts. 177pts.(Second Rank)
Master, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Shrieking Blade, HA, Shield, SDC, BSB & Cold One. 164pts.
Master, Great Weapon, HA, Shield, SDC, shield & Cold One. 96pts.
Master, Great Weapon, HA, Shield, SDC, shield & Cold One. 96pts.
9 Cold One Knights, leaders, Stryder Banner. 352pts
.....but at 885pts I'm pretty leary as to how it'll perform on the table.

[Gerner]

xFallenx. Why do you have three BSB? Also all of them could drop the shield without losing AS.

[Datalink7]

My 2.5K army has this unit:
Sorceress, lvl2, Ring of Hotek, Cold one & Beasts. 177pts.(Second Rank)
Master, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Shrieking Blade, HA, Shield, SDC, BSB & Cold One. 164pts.
Master, Great Weapon, HA, Shield, SDC, BSB, shield & Cold One. 96pts.
Master, Great Weapon, HA, Shield, SDC, BSB, shield & Cold One. 96pts.
9 Cold One Knights, leaders, Stryder Banner. 352pts
.....but at 885pts I'm pretty leary as to how it'll perform on the table.

You're only allowed one BSB.

Also, shield is unneeded as you already have a 1+ save without it.

With that in mind, I would probably just go with Lances or Halberds on each. I would hate to lose the rerolls from taking a Great Weapon.

[Demetrius]

Pretty sure they are not actually BSBs as they are only 96 points each, probably a copy paste oversight.

I would be putting the characters on steeds, they will still have a 1+ armour, and then can easily bail out of the unit, or charge out at M9.

[xFallenx]

Re: BSB. yeah, sorry. Copy & paste thing.
I'll remove the shields but keep the weapon & mount load out for now. Does putting them on a different mount mess with LOS rolls? Or is it based on model type: Cavalry & infantry?

[Gidean]

Re: BSB. yeah, sorry. Copy & paste thing.
I'll remove the shields but keep the weapon & mount load out for now. Does putting them on a different mount mess with LOS rolls? Or is it based on model type: Cavalry & infantry?

Cav is Cav. So mounted on Dark Steeds in a unit of CoK will allow a LOS. But on a DS you will need a shield to get to 1+ armor save.

[Dalamar]

Only the unit type matters, Dark Steeds in Cold One Knights are just fine, but if you don't want to bail the unit, those 2 S4 attacks are far better than 1 S3

[Gidean]

Only the unit type matters, Dark Steeds in Cold One Knights are just fine, but if you don't want to bail the unit, those 2 S4 attacks are far better than 1 S3

I like the options available with the Characters on Dark Steeds. Can go with CoKs or not depending on enemy compostion. Vanguarding Masters are just too cool.

[Ichiyo1821]

I seriously laugh at people who think COK are rubbish...maybe you are not using them right.

[Ichiyo1821]

The power of COK was already mentioned by the posters above. You are not suppose to think of units in a vacuum. It's not all about math hammer. Having a 2 +as unit that hits like a brick on top of Monsters and Execs and RBTs mean that you just need to find a target for the COK block. You are not suppose to charge block infantry with them anyway. Their targets are the elites, the opposing cav or monster. With the addition of ASF, this frees them to use banner of swiftness making them Movement 8 more than enough imo as your entire army moves at m5. There will always be a prime target for them and to be honest even if you are movement 9. there are times when you dont even use up your entire movement allowance because you don't want to be charged. Yes you do have to have units that compliment the COK but there as so many natural synergies within the book that it's not even a problem.

COKs also provide what Execs cannot, that is equal threat and target saturation to your Kharibdyss..

[Daeron]

Do you field them with characters in the unit?
What setups do you field?

[Jabroniville]

They're a very devastating unit, but need to be used properly. Having just gotten finished a High Elf battle, I have to say I wouldn't try that again against them- their equal ASF means you can't block attacks against you, and our COK are VERY, very slow by comparison, thus guaranteeing us getting charged. They did a pretty solid job at hurting some Chaos Knights once, but again that's a bad match-up, as those are the ELITE of elite Knights.

Against almost any other army, they're great- some of the hardest hits we can throw out. They just have to be protected, and can't go solo up against a big infantry unit.

[Daeron]

They don't work so well for me against Dwarves

[Archamedius]

Don't forget fear. They cause fear so every round your opponent has to roll leadership or be WS 1. That really helps them survive much better. Combo that with Shroud of despair or doom and darkness and it can be powerful. Also for those discussing the Beasts Sorceress in the unit, I honestly think it better to go for a level 4 lore of beasts. Arm all your characters with halberds on Cold Ones. They are STR 5 3 attacks with rerolls, and a boosted Savage beast of Horros + Wyssan's means all those characters are 1+ with 6 attacks, STR 9 rerolls. At that point you can take on empire knights, demigryphs, Skullcrushers with a Lord on a Juggernaught, etc. I put together a CoK Bus list last week I want to try but I will have to buy 3 more boxes of Dark Riders and 5 boxes of CoK, and that's a lot of investment.

[Hads]

Last week I went to a tournament. My unit of 6 COK charged a unit of 3 chaos juggys. I made 2 wounds and all the COK died.

Both units were almost same point amount, and the juggys slaughtered my CoK. That failure exposed my left flank and I lost the battle because of that.

My answer is NO, they're not OP, and they're going out of my army.

[Omnichron]

oh i agree with you! I just figured he meant that.

Yep, I guess that was what he meant too

My answer is NO, they're not OP, and they're going out of my army.

I think you should give them more chances... The Skullcrushers (and most MC) are just OP. Not even the WoC knights would want to be in combat with those guys.

With a good char or something that softens those Skullcrushers (or other MC) up, you can do that charge again. You are quite on the point about why the CoK isn't OP though... even while getting the charge, there are things of about the same point value that they can't deal with. I really like to field 10 CoK with razor banner. A lot of punch and little armor saves for my opponents. Together with those extra attack from cold ones and better chances of getting strength debuffs on my enemies... good synergies!

[Daeron]

I think you mention an important point there, and it's an argument recurring among those "in favor and defense of the COKs". But in all honesty, it's more or less the same discussion as in 7th edition. There's just a few arguments less (because we lost the hydra banner and ward save from the COB) and the stakes went up by 3 points per model.

When fielding COKs as part of your main force, rather than a support unit, you need to build synergies around the unit. It needs to be able to choose its targets to be effective. As the unit can be fragile against some types of attacks, it needs protection from certain types of attacks as well.
I once tried to replace one of my infantry units by a COK bus and ended up with a list that looked okay on paper, but didn't work on the table. They never got where they had to be, and didn't get the cover they needed.

This only reinforces my point that the COK is not a unit to be looked at "solo", because they lose a fair few of battles. They have a frailty and a low number of attacks that guarantees a bad matchup against some troops.
To build a list with COKs as your main force implies having to tune your list to it. I feel we had more ways to do this in the previous book as one of the corner stones, IMO, were the peg characters, the hydra BSB and COB ward save. The new book removed or reduced these options, but in return the master/lord on cold one became stronger thanks to the improved SDC and murderous prowess.
The Peg Master with Twillight Cloak is also an interesting MC hunter, which could combo charge a MC unit. THEN you'd have an interesting match against MC I reckon.

The COK isn't "gone", but they require a different playstyle. They are not interchangeable with some other combat unit. The real strength needs to come from combinations of multiple units and a general mobility of the army that dominates the movement phase.

For a small unit, such synergy is less of a requirement. I think a unit of 5 COKs can fit in any list and be a valuable addition. But the 10 COK list costs too much and brings too little to the table "on its own" (at least in games 2.4K and less). It needs a different dynamic in the way your army is built and played.
On the positive side... this does demonstrate that variety in our army is possible

[Ichiyo1821]

My 2500 list still has 11\12 xok bus with banner of swiftness and I use them pretty much as I have with the 7th ed book. I son't get why people are getting charged. We have so much chaff from Harpies, Dark Riders, Shades, Warlocks and even peg characters that my opponent will never get the charge on my cok unless I want him to. They generate so much ACR that whatever is left of that unit if any( very rare) that the multiple s4 attacks on the second turn of combat sjuld be enough to clear them off the board and that is if the target unit didnt die outright or breakbin the first place.

They are not an ideal anvil but they can be one if the need arises. Their stats minus toughness is pretty damn high and sadly we don't have Silverhelms that can pretty much do that at a cheaper price.

Truth is yes again you have to somewhat fit the army with a cok bus but DE has synergies that are pretty close to even the Empire that it is not difficult to make them fit. I never thought it was a big deal but 3 s4 attacks per model is really nice. I now include my BsB with dawnstone and a mgic weapon or halberd with the current "nerf" to a DH bsb and he seems like a good fit. Anothe r option is giving the unit a razor standard but I find it excessive at times. Again 14 strength 6 attacks re-rolling to hit, re-rolling to wound of 1s or if you got the points a cob in the mix gives you 20 re-rolling to wound which may or may not be Withered will take down any unit even Demigryphs. I've done it and tried it one my first tourney with the new book and even I was shocked that did so much damage. Give the unit a go with the right complimentary units and you'll never look back once.

[Demetrius]

Last week I went to a tournament. My unit of 6 COK charged a unit of 3 chaos juggys. I made 2 wounds and all the COK died.
.

Shock horror. What did you think was going to happen? You never engage MC in the front, especially not Skillcrushers, because yes they will destroy anything you send into them. Hit them in the flank with some static res and watch them break.