How would you deal with a CASTLE OF BONES!!??

[T.D.]

Alright chaps and chapessess,

The new book has been out for a few months now and other races are coming up with strategies to deal with our mobility and board control potential.

One of the most novel approaches I've heard about is the Tomb Kings "Castle of Bones";

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=14168

Albeit this is a 5000 point game (which most of us don't play) and played wrongly (Cauldron targetting) it is one approach that cheap horde armies - Skaven, TK, OnG, VC - can use against us.
Basically; deny movement by choosing place of engagement and castling up, force engagement through artillery, threaten approach with shooting and magic, slow us with chaff, and counter-charge with heavy troops.


[*]So, how would you deal with such an enemy setup?

[*]Assuming your list is tailored vs his race (but closed)?

[*]Assuming your list is an all-comers one?

[Dalamar]

I think I would actually approach this thing from a side, put the witch elves through a flank, forcing him to start turning those skeleton walls or keep them deep and facing forward.

In this setup is super easy to use his own troops as cover against catapults and making him pay with indirect fire catapults. Also forcing archers to start turning towards the witch elves (or shoot at expendable units in front)

Sure, Witches will have to grind through a million of skeletons... but if you kill 20 skeletons per round (not that hard actually), and pop another 20 in combat rez... they'll be gone in two phases, freeing you up in 3rd to continue charging in.

Not to mention a big black horror flying through that castle will scare the living bejeezus out of the low I undead.

[Dyvim tvar]

Against Tomb Kings in general I would max out on Death Magic. Purple Sun nukes them, and they crumble if you can snipe the Hierophant.

[T.D.]

Not to mention a big black horror flying through that castle will scare the living bejeezus out of the low I undead.

Yeah, when I saw the deployment my first thoughts were Peg Sorc down a flank to put a vortex horizontally through his backline

Even an untailored list with an infantry Sorceress can cause havoc in the castle with vortexes from more direct angles.

I think I would actually approach this thing from a side, put the witch elves through a flank, forcing him to start turning those skeleton walls or keep them deep and facing forward.

Refusing a flank is indeed a good idea. Makes at least one of his big blocks redundant and focuses power against the other one. Also causes his army to turn and makes his archers less effective.

Against Tomb Kings in general I would max out on Death Magic. Purple Sun nukes them, and they crumble if you can snipe the Hierophant.

+1! Death is golden against them when it comes to a tailored list.


Good thoughts so far

Anyone else have any observations, experiences or tips n tricks?

[Gerner]

Comet of Casandora! If you get that spell and it comes off, it is the anti-thesis of castle.

Besides that it would probably something a like Dalamar's The Two Towers List x2.

[Geist]

Until I see this same list done at a more reasonable points value I would just ignore it. Sure 2 100man bricks of skeletons is hard to deal with, but at a more realistic points value just how many skeletons are in the walls? For the sake of completeness here is what I would like to see info wise before I even decide to care about this tactic.
Size of wall units in the following points sizes plus of course what makes up the rest of the army.
2500 (standard size in my area)
2400 (as I see alot of games happen in that range)
2000 (because that is considered a small game in my area)

Once I get the data needed for those sizes then I will care. Most TK list are ok but too many of them are just weak as all get out sadly, either due to player experience level or to bad choices in army builds.

[Dalamar]

Tomb Kings without special characters generally don't work. But start adding Khalida or Arkhan and they suddenly become a competitive force.

[Ehakir]

I'd guess a witch elf horde in the flank of such a castle skeleton unit would just tear it up, right?

[Canadianguy]

yep, might take a couple of turns.

[Dalamar]

100 skeletons.

Assuming he turns to face them before charge (not turning would be just silly) (I'm not sure what a skeleton warrior basic equipment is so I'm assuming spears and shields, no armor)

Witches Charge in (with frenzy doubled):
Cauldron impact hits: 3.75 dead skeletons
Death Hag (with some sort of magic weapon): 4.01 dead skeletons
Cauldron attendants: 0.88 poisons - 3.51 wounds
Witch Elves (a total of 42 attacks): 6.22 poisons - 24.62 wounds

35.89 wounds on average (ish)

Skeletons attack back in a horde (though I believe they were 20 deep/wide in the battle) so 12 skeletons wide can attack, in 4 ranks (but 4th rank has lost 15 models already so only 5 in 4th rank. We're looking at 38 return attacks including champion, 4 of which have no choice but go against the death hag or cauldron. but since death hag isn't any harder to wound than the witches (unless skeletons are WS2, I don't think so so I gave them WS3), lets assume smart opponent and 15 attacks going after the death hag to minimize excess wounds

15 against the death hag - 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 wounds, killing the death hag for 2CR
remaining 23 attacks against witch elves for 3.83 wounds on witch elves.
Since the half wound on hag is wasted, we have 5.83 wounds in return
35.89-5.83 = 30.06 CR to the witches advantage, plus 1 for charge (ranks are equal, both have banners, bsb died so no other points)
Additional 31 skeletons succumb to crumbling.

Result:
Skeletons lost 66 models.
Witches lost 5/6 of their number and the death hag for a negligible loss in performance.

Skeletons have 34 models remaining, without impacts and death hag attacks, witch elves will kill about 27, remaining 8 attacks back is enough to kill about a single witch elf.

Skeletons turn into fine bone powder and the witch elf horde now has an unrestricted access from the side of the "castle". It is also the dark elf turn now. As far as wounds taken before combat is engaged are concerned, this calculation gives us about 20 points of CR in excess so I think we're still fine after losing whole two ranks of witch elves to shooting.

Now seeing as it's a 2500 points game, I would simply double my two towers list.
Put a unit of witch elves, each with cauldron on each flank of the "castle"
Put two units of execs with shrines down the middle
Warlocks and dark riders would hold back to deal with chaff and wait for the walls of the castle to crumble and the hydras would go after targets of opportunity. 4 bolt thrower battery would stay together to deal with ambushers.

I predict the entire castle formation crumble into fine dust due to its inability to adapt to the situation.
For example. I can march my Witch Elves 20" forward over 2 turns just off to the side of each of the skeleton walls and despite being 4" in front of them (if they don't move, but they did), inside their front arc but not directly in front of them, they can't charge me because the 20-deep formation prevents them from wheeling to the outside and because witch elves are a horde, at 4" away they are positioned for a flank charge.
With a turn 3 charge, I have turns 4, 5, and 6 to go through the "guts" of the castle.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

The easy option to deal with castle armies whether bony, stunty or manly, is a comet or two. Raining asteroids on you opponent vaporising warmachines and support units does wonders to encourage them to come out of their castle.