Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

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Heavycloud02
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Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Heavycloud02 »

As I've built lists one of the biggest decisions that seems to impact how the army looks is if I take corsairs or witches for those core points slots.

Corsairs, with additional weapons, cost the same as witches too and get two attacks. And a 4+ armor save.

Witches have frenzy, with poison attacks, but no armor save.

I see how these two units could be said to be good at different things. But since it usually works better if I only take one; it would be nice to decide if one units is definitively better than the other. Less models to buy too.

But honestly I don't know enough. Are these two units as equal as they looks to me or is one (generally) better than the other?
Last edited by Heavycloud02 on Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vulcan
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Vulcan »

Witches are better unless you have a specific need to stand up to lots of shooting from your regular opponents. And even that can be mitigated for the Witches... for a price

Both have S3 attacks. Frenzy means Witches deliver three per model, as opposed to two per for the Corsairs. The Witches also have one higher point of Initiative, meaning they keep their ASF rerolls against I6 opponents, where the Corsairs would loose them (not a big deal, I6 is VERY rare). Poison means that Witches can also reliably deliver wounds onto even the toughest targets, where Corsairs would falter. Both share the same weakness of struggling against heavy armor, but even there the Witches will do better, for having 50% more attacks, while Frenzy lasts anyway.

The only advantage Corsairs have is a 4+ save. This is better than the Witches total lack of saves unless you're spending the points for a Cauldron, where the Witches gain a 5++ save.

Well, there is one other advantage to Corsairs. The models are half the price in actual money. This is no small consideration nowadays.
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Calisson
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Calisson »

One more difference is frenzy. A good opponent winning the chaff war would drive the WE around the battlefield.
Last difference is that corsairs can shelter a sorceress. Not WE.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Pablo »

Witches are akin to small hand grenades. Throw small units of them at the enemy and they either draw heaps of attention or hit a unit and do a suprising amount of damage.
Corsairs are better in a steadfast/grind role because of the armor, but honestly as an elf you don't really want to grind.
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Bigboar
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Bigboar »

In most of competitive lists you always see an horde of witches most with CoB, so there is no doubt they are better...
Someone could say, of course they are better: their models cost more than TWICE the price of corsairs nobody would otherwise buy them!

Actually is difficult to say our core are balanced, the main witches advantages Imho are the better save when joining a cauldron, the poison and the possibility to take the razor standard.
For the same points this doesn't balance the flexibility of the corsaris, they should have been cheaper (or probably the witches more expensive) or given both ahw and rhb.

That said I've no witches and more than 30 corsairs, mostly for tematic reason (I like the rider/corsairs theme) and I can tell you they are good, better than most of other armies core.

They are very flexible, You can use them as a MSU maybe with handbow (i like 7x2), as a steadfast block (5x8) or even as an high damage horde (10x3) let them join an hag or tullaris and they have frenzy, then you can add CoB if you want.

they only clash against cavalry or heavy infantry, all those 1+ 2+ armour almost everybody has cause even an horde of s3 infatry to autolose, and since cavalry usually have a lance the corsairs armour disappear (and irony the witches have even a better save!!)
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phlewis
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by phlewis »

Witches with the Cauldron will outperform Corsairs. Without the Cauldron I would pick Corsairs for the armour save. I run both. The Witches with Cauldron usually destroy everything in front of them and the Corsairs usually die heroically defending the Witches flank. Both are good units.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Vulcan »

Calisson wrote:One more difference is frenzy. A good opponent winning the chaff war would drive the WE around the battlefield.


Fortunately DE have all the tools to prevent just such an issue. IF you actually use them.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Mikael.k »

Due to frenzy, witches cant elect to flee. At first glance one might think that they wouldnt want to flee anyway, but there sure are strategic value in beeing able to do just that sometimes :)
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Haagrum »

Vulcan wrote:
Calisson wrote:One more difference is frenzy. A good opponent winning the chaff war would drive the WE around the battlefield.


Fortunately DE have all the tools to prevent just such an issue. IF you actually use them.

All of which costs more points.

AHW Corsairs are my preference, pound for pound, unless you make a significant additional investment in boosting the Witches and mitigating Frenzy disadvantages. However, smallish units of Witches are effective blenders, and effective against tougher opponents thanks to Poisoned Attacks - they just fall over in a stiff breeze.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Vulcan »

Haagrum wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Calisson wrote:One more difference is frenzy. A good opponent winning the chaff war would drive the WE around the battlefield.


Fortunately DE have all the tools to prevent just such an issue. IF you actually use them.

All of which costs more points.


You mean you weren't planning on using ANY Dark Riders, Harpies, Shades, Darkshards, Warlocks, Bolt Throwers, Medusae or Masters/Lords on Dark Peggies or Steeds? None at all? Not even any chariots, Hydras, or K-Beasts to be alternate threats? NOTHING?

What does your army list look like, to ignore our most excellent options for controlling the maneuver battle to ensure getting into close combat on YOUR terms and not your opponent's term?
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Calisson
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Calisson »

Calisson wrote:One more difference is frenzy. A good opponent winning the chaff war would drive the WE around the battlefield.
Vulcan wrote:You mean you weren't planning on using ANY Dark Riders, Harpies, Shades, Darkshards, Warlocks, Bolt Throwers, Medusae or Masters/Lords on Dark Peggies or Steeds? None at all? Not even any chariots, Hydras, or K-Beasts to be alternate threats? NOTHING?
Blatant oversimplification.
It takes more than one single DR unit to win the chaff war.
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Haagrum
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Haagrum »

Vulcan wrote:
Haagrum wrote:All of which costs more points.


You mean you weren't planning on using ANY Dark Riders, Harpies, Shades, Darkshards, Warlocks, Bolt Throwers, Medusae or Masters/Lords on Dark Peggies or Steeds? None at all? Not even any chariots, Hydras, or K-Beasts to be alternate threats? NOTHING?

What does your army list look like, to ignore our most excellent options for controlling the maneuver battle to ensure getting into close combat on YOUR terms and not your opponent's term?

Calm down, Vulcan. The question was Witches vs Corsairs.

A COB-Witchstar needs support for maximum value. A smaller unit of Witches either doesn't get dedicated support units (in which case, it can be led around by a smart opponent winning a chaff war), or it gets that support and is then effectively Witches plus support in points terms... meaning that you have dedicated one or more of our many movement-supporting units to aid that unit rather than keeping it free for other duties, which is relevant to the OP's question.

As for my lists, you're welcome to critique anything I've posted on the Army Lists forum. That's not the issue here.
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Dalamar
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Dalamar »

To me it boils down to this:
Do I have a CoB?:

Yes - big unit of witches
No - small units of witches or big unit of corsairs or small units of handbow corsairs.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Cobra »

Maybe I should give corsairs another shot because cauldron or no a decent sized or a couple medium sized witch units almost always make it into my lists and corsairs almost never do. A surprising amount of people will back them up on this site.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by marcopollo »

In my group I have three wood elf players. So a corsair unit lasts longer. But I am seriously looking at 10 rhb corsairs as a screen for some of my other more fragile units.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Diobarach »

I'd tried to keep your expectations of corsairs reasonable. They aren't witch elves, witch elves are basically a special unit in core, corsairs don't compare well with them on a point for point basis. I usually take one unit of 14-18 corsairs with handbows, and they do ok since they are fairly flexible, they have a decent save, can shoot and aren't utterly terrible in combat.
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Dalamar
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Dalamar »

Corsairs can be amazing with the right support. Power of Darkness or Wildform, maybe Flaming Sword or Enchanted Blades... That is true for all our core, even witch elves need help to be amazing, except their help comes in a form of a cauldron that is far more reliable than a magic phase.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Askador »

Dalamar wrote:Corsairs can be amazing with the right support. Power of Darkness or Wildform, maybe Flaming Sword or Enchanted Blades... That is true for all our core, even witch elves need help to be amazing, except their help comes in a form of a cauldron that is far more reliable than a magic phase.


Magic is the only way to make them good.
For me the Corsairs are just better Zombies. They can stand in the way and blocking the path to make way for the real Combat Units.
They have alot of shots and alot hits. Hitting really good, wounding really bad and killing almost nothing.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by Olderplayer »

marcopollo wrote:In my group I have three wood elf players. So a corsair unit lasts longer. But I am seriously looking at 10 rhb corsairs as a screen for some of my other more fragile units.


This is where I am at. Execs take a lot of damage from shooting, as do witches; so a screen of corsairs really pays off. I've often found that I want them to flee a charge (behind the execs and witches) which forces the opponent to redirect into one of those killing units.

The cauldron of blood plus witch elf combo is just too expensive and eats up too much of the hero slot (where master on peg and master on dark steed are too good to pass up).

In my current list, in fact, I'm not taking either because I want the vanguard and mobility of two units of dark riders (plus as places for mounted characters with a unit of warlocks) and darkshards to protect to the RBTs in order to work in the current metagame. I'd like to screen my execs with corsairs and have a small unit of witches but just cant' find the points unless I give up one unit of darkshards.
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Re: Corsairs v.s. Witches, who to take?

Post by marcopollo »

Being able to move and fire like rhb's can, gives a decent screen that wont cost an arm and a leg for the same number of shades. DR's are excellent core but sometimes their shooting is disappointing. I'm starting to think that rxb's are only good on about half of them. Maybe it is just me, but seeing Woodies carve through my expensive troops makes me want to use cheaper units all around. Woodies do generally fold like a paper bag once engaged. But enduring heavy casualties while they eventually get to their target is where the games are won and lost. And danm it if you forget to occupy as many woods as you can or you'll find yourself with wild riders comming up your bum.... Just sayin'.
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