Struggling with local meta

[Ahashra]

Hi guys,

This is my first post here! Basically I am struggling with my local meta right now and I need some advice. Over the last year players at my local store have gone from using a wide variety of lists to using just Daemons with Epidemus, Chaos Warriors with Epidemus, and on the rare occasion Skaven. The situation has reached the point where I am the only player of a different army that bothers turning up to play, so I always get put against a multitude of people using these Epidemus lists. In a single day of gaming I could play against 3 different people using 3 different Epidemus lists... I really need some advice on what sort of army composition I should be looking at to stay relatively competitive against these lists. I feel that I have simply built on what I use at a 1000 point level and that it simply does not work as a 2000 point list. As such my current list is by no means a min/max list, but I feel that it really needs to be tailored to beating these Daemon and Warriors lists.

The current list I am running is as follows:

Super sorc; level 4, dark Pegasus, opal Amulet

Master; lance, heavy armour, shield, coldone, battle standard, war banner

10 Dark riders; shields, repeaters

40 Bleakswords; C, S, M

9 Coldone knights; C, S, M, razor Banner

5 Shades; light armour, great weapons

4 Bolt throwers

5 Warlocks

5 Warlocks

Many thanks to anyone who decides to comment, and I am sorry if I posted this in the wrong place.

[T.D.]

Net lists all round, eh? Sounds like a bundle of joy.

To me this is a license to fight cheese with cheese

Someone who knows Daemons will be able to better advise you, but I'd go for a very mobile strategy with multimasters on Dark Steeds. If you dont have the models for that I'd tweak your list as follows:



Super sorc; level 4, dark Pegasus, opal Amulet -- Dark Steed in Warlocks, Death, ToP, scroll

Master; lance, heavy armour, shield, coldone, battle standard, war banner -- Cloak of Twilight


10 Dark riders; shields, repeaters -- 5 and 5, muso

40 Bleakswords; C, S, M -- swap out for flaming Witches

9 Coldone knights; C, S, M, razor Banner -- swiftness maybe

5 Shades; light armour, great weapons -- no armour, possible drop completely for points

4 Bolt throwers -- drop one to get the extra points

5 Warlocks -- good

5 Warlocks -- good

[Ahashra]

Thanks for the reply and feedback. I actually forgot something from my original post: In my local store we are only allowed to play on 2 by 2 realm of battle boards (sometimes with up to 5 woods on the table also...). Hence it makes things a bit more tricky, especially at 2000 points.

[marcopollo]

Learn your dangerous terrain rules, charging and shooting rules with regards to terrain inside and out.

Saw an interesting battle report of DE against and epidemeus demon list and he used a ton of shooting and shadow magic. He also had 2 warlock units and 3 (big -ish) shade units, also cheap DR to slow his units down. He also had a big unit of CoK to rip through what was left over. (Mindrazor and Withering were his go-to spells, but also used Miasma to slow his opponents approach). He could use one as a threat while casting the other. I think he had Darkshards with the flaming banner to get rid of his regen.

Mindrazored DR can seem like a waste of magic, but it can make an opponent think twice about charging in. Midrazored shades with two hand weapons is pretty ugly too. Min of 10 St 8 ASF MP attacks are pretty ugly and I would think twice about charging them as a redirector. So even when withering is optimal, he could still go to town with mindrazor, or vice-versa.

[gerryb56]

Not sure how Epidemius gets into Warriors lists ?

Single shots RBT can hurt as he won't get LoS rolls. Combat Lord with coldones charged into him should kill him.
Death ( purple sun ) Eats Nurgle Daemnos

I'd split the Bleakswords into 2 units of 20 witches ( one with flaming )

If you want shooting use units of 5 DR to shoot and run interference,

[direweasel]

Thanks for the reply and feedback. I actually forgot something from my original post: In my local store we are only allowed to play on 2 by 2 realm of battle boards (sometimes with up to 5 woods on the table also...). Hence it makes things a bit more tricky, especially at 2000 points.

That would explain all the chaos lists. Shooting is much less viable in that kind of environment. Maneuver is tougher too.

Shades are important here - you can deploy them in a forest near or in the opponent's deployment zone. Just the fact that you CAN do this should keep his deployment more honest. Skip the armor, it's not going to help you anyway. Try to get a second group of 5 in if you can. This will give you a little shooting and will also help keep the opponent from marching if you place them well.

As others have said, split the 10 dark riders into 2 units of 5.

Other than that, witches and executioners as far as the eye can see. And sorceresses should focus on metal against warriors, and light against demons. And as someone else said, learn the terrain rules like the back of your hand, and use them to your advantage when possible.

[Ahashra]

Thanks for all the comments guys Really getting a great idea of how I can form a new list here, cheers!

Not sure how Epidemius gets into Warriors lists ?

Isn't Epidemius allowed in Warriors lists!? There is a guy at my local store who uses him in his warrior list all the time, even in tournaments, and yet no one has mentioned anything to him... He is known for bending the rules, however, so it wouldn't surprise me if he did it with this too...

Single shots RBT can hurt as he won't get LoS rolls.

I was under the impression that this was the case, but the last game I played was against a pure nurgle list, and the guy insisted that Epidemius could take a LoS roll whilst in a unit of plague bearers.

I tend to know the rules quite well, and I am not one to argue unless someone is blatantly cheating, but it looks like I am going to have to start putting my foot down. Kind of crazy, really.

[Haagrum]

Isn't Epidemius allowed in Warriors lists!? There is a guy at my local store who uses him in his warrior list all the time, even in tournaments, and yet no one has mentioned anything to him... He is known for bending the rules, however, so it wouldn't surprise me if he did it with this too...

Using the Allies rules, it's possible. However, the Daemons of Nurgle contingent would need to be a legal army themselves - that is, he couldn't simply include Epidemius without spending at least 200pt on a Core unit of Daemons and enough points devoted to Daemons models to bring Epidemius within the 25% Heroes limit (so, a minimum 800 pts of Daemons).

Also, there wouldn't be much point, as Epidemius's Tally rules only affect Daemons of Nurgle, and only counts wounds done by Daemons of Nurgle and spells from the Lore of Nurgle. Just having the Mark of Nurgle isn't enough to count for this.

Single shots RBT can hurt as he won't get LoS rolls.

I was under the impression that this was the case, but the last game I played was against a pure nurgle list, and the guy insisted that Epidemius could take a LoS roll whilst in a unit of plague bearers.

He doesn't get Look Out Sir!, but your opponent can allocate the hits from BS-based shooting (BRB, p99). Since you can't assign the bolt thrower shot to hit Epidemius, he's effectively protected from being sniped out of that unit, despite being a different troop type.

However, if you hit him with Penumbral Pendulum or some other template, he gets no Look Out Sir! when he's with a unit of Plaguebearers, because he's not an Infantry model.

[gerryb56]

What happens if you put the single BT shot through where Epi is, he can't have a LoS so does it hit him or does he ignore for models in a different file.

[Haagrum]

Interesting question, gerryb56. This could happen, but only if the only model on that facing was Epidemius (ie, you shoot into a flank, and Epidemius is on the corner, and there are only 1 or 2 ranks so there are no Plaguebearer models in that facing). Bolt throwers don't use templates or draw lines of effect, they just pierce ranks.

I suppose the answer is that, if the shot hits one facing of the target unit, and Epidemius is the only eligible model to take that hit, then and only then would he be hit by the bolt thrower and his lack of a Look Out Sir! would come into the equation.

[Heartsbane]

As a first suggestion, perhaps find somewhere else to play where you can have a game on the 6' by 4' table the game is balanced for? Seriously, give gaming outside of a store a try, most people I know who've tried it now don't ever game in store (ymmv of course).

As to dealing with nurgle daemons with Epi, you essentially have 2 options. One is to crash in head on (which it sounds like the board and playstyle favour). Solid blocks of witches and a mage on shadow magic will be order of the day here. The penalty to hit actually favours you, as with re-rolls it just means you get more poison hits. Oh, and one unit of witches should bring the flaming banner. + toughness, super poison and killing blow from the tally don't hurt you too much as a witch who gets hit is generally a dead witch anyhow.

The other option is going to be harder to pull off, but if you do it it'll be much more satisfying than just pushing blocks forwards, and once you've learnt how to do it will be very hard for any opponent to counter. And that is to have a super mobile force making surgical strikes. If the tally goes up you're going to have a hard time of things, so you're going to have to take pains to not loose any more lives than you can possibly avoid. Here a pegasus sorceress with death (for snipes and/or purple sun) is good, as are chariots, knights, karribdis and as many characters as you can fit on pegasi. Dark riders as core to run disruption. You'll need to smash stuff on the charge and punch through his lines, and assassinate Epi asap.

In either case, you'll likely have the upper hand in magic, as if they're running pure nurgle the most they can have are level 1s.

[T.D.]

Btw prioritise the others' advice over mine as I have never played vs Epidemus.

I also made an error in my earlier suggestions -- I thought your BSB was on a Peg, hence Cloak.
As he's in the Bus, then protection in the form of armour (AoD) or unit magic (RoH) would be better.

Lots of good tips have been given. Let us know how you get on

[dms505]

It is impossible for him to use Epi in a warrior unit so at 2000 points and only 25% being allies he CANNOT use Epi unless he runs alone. Rules for Epi that make this likely or not possible:

1. He may only join a daemon of nurgle unit.
2. His bonuses only apply to daemons
3. His bonuses are gained partialy from nurgle daemons killing things.

Maybe he is using Festus the Leechlord and not Epe?

Honestly I know it sucks but if that's what people were always playing and i had to fight 3 games of the same crap I would tell them bring something else or play someone else. OR build an army to specifically destroy them. I can't imagine very many tournaments that use allies within the same army. Usually that's only in team tournaments.

Or make a game rule where there are no special characters or bring your own specials. If people are "gaming" the local meta then ask them to tweak the rules and tell them why. It's no fun. If they're preparing for a tournament then they can find others who are doing the same but if it's casual then they should change it up.

With DE it's easy enough to tailor your list. By now you should know who your going to play and what their army will be before you get there and bring an anti-list.