Competitive lists without witches.

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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PureSphinx
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Competitive lists without witches.

Post by PureSphinx »

Four days from now I am playing a competitive game against a friend's High Elves. We will be playing 2500 points and I do not wish to field a Witchstar. So I have a few questions and want to toss some ideas around before I post my list in two days.

First, my core is going to be a horde of Corsairs, a few handbow corsair units, and some Dark Riders. My question is whether or not I should bother with a hag to give the horde frenzy? AHW corsairs with frenzy seem as viable to me as a witch horde and I'm not wasting points on a cauldron so I can take support casters and peg masters.

Next, my special is going to have CoK, Blackguard, and probably a Hydra or two. I prefer blackguard over Executioners for their grinding power and stubborn. Any advice on unit sizes and where my characters should go?

My rare will definitely be two units of warlocks at least. I'm thinking some bolt throwers and maybe a chariot (if they are rare, or are they special? I won't have my book til later today or tomorrow when I unpack it). What is the optimal amount of bolt throwers if I go that route?

I will be taking a level 4, probably with beasts or shadow as those are my favorite lores. I will also be taking a Dreadlord. My questions are: what unit should my sorceress go in, and what's a good loadout? Also, is it viable to take a Twilight or ToP dragon lord competitively? Why or why not, and what are its strengths and weaknesses? Should I be getting a rerollable save as well or more combat oriented with just the 1+ no reroll?

Lastly, is there anything I may have forgotten about, or anything you guys want to toss up for me to think over? Thanks for the help! Time to crush some pansi- Ahem! High Elves.
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Haagrum
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Re: Competitive lists without witches.

Post by Haagrum »

Corsairs can be competitive. You just need the right support against heavy troops. Beasts and Shadow are good choices - both make you harder to kill, and Mindrazor is just brutal.

A Witchbrew Hag is useful because you get extra attacks and Immune to Psychology. Just remember, though, that she is vulnerable to Death snipe spells.

I tend to include my Sorceress in a large unit of Knights (with some protection against a failed Stupidity test), Black Guard or Corsairs. It really depends on the lore you're using. However, if they have to come after a large unit to get her, you can shape the combat to your advantage. You may lose your sorceress, but if that means breaking the back of an enemy army, so be it.

I think our infantry (other than Dreadspears and Bleakswords) should be in a few ranks, but maximising combat frontage (depending on whether they are a horde or not). I find that unit sizes of 18-24, fielded 6-8 models wide and inclusive of characters, are good for tactical mobility and flexibility while retaining enough punch to beat most opposing units. Dreadspears and Bleakswords are better in a narrow frontage, where they can have deeper ranks (for Steadfast denial or abuse).

Bolt throwers and chariots of all stripes (other than the Shrine) are Special choices, so your warlocks are free to chew up the Rare points. :)

I've never used a Dragon lord so I can't comment on that, but other posters will have suggestions, no doubt.

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Shearov
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Re: Competitive lists without witches.

Post by Shearov »

I've used corsairs before and they were good, including an epic 'trap' I set where they got charged on three side by units with good armour, I then IF Mindrazor on them, it was great.

The Sorceress could always sit with the RHB corsairs, they've got a good save so could be a good bunker, and I'm sure you won't be raring to get them into combat.

Have you thought about using Tullaris with the corsairs, will add frenzy and give your opponent something to think about with a challange, a KB on 5 or 6 is nice.

I have been using Black Guards, (now execs but that's for a change) and find them very useful, especially against HEs as they will still be getting their re-rolls to hit. I love chariots too, whether to hold up a flank, or come in with a charge to sway a combat they never seem to fail.

I'm not sure about the oprimal amount of Bolt Throwers but I've always found if you take four, they won't let you down.
PureSphinx
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Re: Competitive lists without witches.

Post by PureSphinx »

I played a couple of practice games last night and I think I've decided on a few things. Both chariots are awesome, a mobile bolt thrower that is a good combo charger and the Cold One Chariot is decently durable. Shadow lore is amazing. My friend ran a huge block of spearmen and pulled the night goblin big boss trick, but with 745 pts of lords instead, and some mind razored corsairs held the line just long enough for the Cold One Chariot to get a rear charge and swing CR, proceeding to run down the deathstar. My Hydra pinned down a unit of ten Dragon Princes for nearly an entire game, if only because of IP, but it's still a good investment I think.

One of each of those chariots and a block of around 24 Blackguard supported by a hydra will probably be my Special. Warlocks are awesome but I should only need two units, so I'll work on a rough draft tonight to see where the rest of those points should go. If I don't get a definite answer about a dragon lord I'll probably just stick him in the Blackguard or something.

What are some good kits for a sorceress and a Dreadlord? I tried a CoT/Dawnstone Dragonlord last night and he did well until he met up with a Trickster's Helm/Dawnstone Star Dragon, and then it was a 3 turn combat in which no wounds were inflicted until my opponent rolled very lucky and killed me. I think a 4++ would be better all around than the CoT, so I think I'll give ToP to my shadow sorceress and AoD to my Dreadlord unless there are better builds.
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Red...
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Re: Competitive lists without witches.

Post by Red... »

For some S&G, you could take a featherfoe torc (flying creatures and their riders must re-roll successful hits against the bearer and his unit) on your dreadlord if you know that your opponent is going to taking his star dragon again.

One fun setup is: Dreadlord with Sword of Bloodshed, Potion of Strength, and Talisman of Protection, with full mundane armour. That gives your dreadlord the ability to have one turn per game where he gets 7 attacks at strength 7 - enough to put out some serious hurt against even a tooled up enemy character. He also has a 1+ save and a 6+ ward. A slightly diluted version involves the Sword of Strife, Talisman of Endurance, and Potion of Strength (5+ ward rather than a 6+ ward).
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PureSphinx
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Re: Competitive lists without witches.

Post by PureSphinx »

I would take that build except that my Sorc is taking shadow so if I can get mindrazor off on my dreadlord he'll be S10, making the potion of strength unnecessary. I don't know if he's taking the dragon again, we are keeping closed lists. Bloodshed is a cool idea though, I may give that a try but put him in a unit instead of on a dragon... We will see I suppose.
dms505
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Re: Competitive lists without witches.

Post by dms505 »

I used 60 spearmen, 35 corsairs AHW with some success, but they tend to fight like normal units instead of blenders. For instance yes 60 spearmen can take out a 18 strong gutstar but they will lose about 90%+ to do so and it will take about 3 rounds of combat. A small unit of execs and/or BG can fill the killy rolls well enough for the points you'd save not taking witches. If you can get some wyssan's on the corsairs or spearmen they become similar to 60 chaos warriors. So yes you can choose not to use witches but you just have to make up for the amount of death they can deal by killing opponents units in another way or boosting your other core units with magic. It's just a different way of accomplishing the same thing. The difference being the witches' buff is built in and you don;t have to rely on casting a spell.
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