2k Lists, primarily to face VC.

[Dark_archon]

Hi guys,

I have recently restarted warhammer after about 10 years break (god i feel old now) and have picked up dark elves. I am looking at a couple of slightly different 2k lists, which primarily will be used to play my housemate who has a 2k VC army, with a very tough melee vampire general (basically short of malekith he would rip to pieces anything else i can throw at him).

Here are my ideas, feel free to pass positive and negative comments on where I may improve this:

Army list 1:

Supreme Sorceress - Level 4, Focus Familiar, tome of Furion, Sacrificial Dagger (345)
Sorceress - Level 2, tome of furion, staff of sorcery (185)
Lokhir Fellheart (250)

Repeater Crossbowman - 16 - champion and standard (175
Spearman - 12 - full command with shields (99)
Dark Riders - 5 - Crossbows + full command (145)
Black Ark Corsairs - 20 - full command, banner of hag, 2 hand weps or 1 and pistol? (250) not convinced about these myself
Cold one Knights - 5 - Full command, deathpiercer (200)
Har Ganeth Executioners - 10 - Full command (150)
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 2 (200)

Total: 1999

My main problems with this list are the Corsairs, which im really not sure how good these are actually going to be in practise, and if I do use them, what weapons to give them. Generally the idea with this list is to play quite defensivly and utilise my advantage in magic and shooting phases.

With that in mind I have a slightly different command set up which I was considering:

Morathi + darksword + dawnstar cloak (505)
Sorceress - level 2, tome of furion, staff of sorcery (185)
Assassin +hand wep + Rune of Khain + Hand of Khain

And to pay for this the banner of hag comes off the corsairs and the cold ones would lose deathpiercer.

My main problem with this is sinking 1/4 of my army into one character, than if she gets closed down is going to get ripped apart rather easily by vampires. The assassin is primarily intended to strike at his necromancers or try and help destroy the undead units around the vampire before i lose my ranks and can kill off wounds from the vampire by combat resolution.

One thing that I would like to try and find space for is harpies to prevent march moves by sitting them behind units. I would also debate a hydra instead of the 2 bolt throwers, however I think the bolt throwers at 2000 points might be more useful for this style of army.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Arch

[Bbckamaja]

Corsair only get up to 25 point banners so no hag there.
12 spearmen with command..easy points from standard and if your going to use them as sacrifice unit it needs more meat or it takes panic test very often. As whole your need more men and less standards. Musicians and champions are ok in most cases, but standards need fully developped units around them.

[Sarcon]

Oh, well, to start off I strongly recommend you take a bit more time to read your army book and warhammer rulebook....

Supreme Sorceress - Level 4, Focus Familiar, tome of Furion, Sacrificial Dagger (345)
Sorceress - Level 2, tome of furion, staff of sorcery (185)
Lokhir Fellheart (250)

1. You got 3 enchanted items on your supreme sorceress, you can only have 1.
2. You have the same magic item twice, you can only take it once.


I'll keep it like this for now. Please do read the rules properly next time! Thanks in advance!

[Dreske]

He only has 1 lord and tome + staff is only 50pts(although they are both arcane), but the other points are spot on. (if you are referring to Morathi, etc. that is an alternate command set-up)

I would lose the full command on the Dark Riders and only take a musician, as well as the command models from the xbow elves. That and equipping your heros correctly should free up enough points to get 2 units of 10 xbow elves.

[Silverheimdall]

Sarcon thought Lokhir was a Lord I guess? Also Sarcon, Tome of Furion + Staff of Sorcery is 50 pts I think.

And its not Enchanted, its Arcane - But still yes, each character is limited to ONE arcane item and no item can be duplicate in the same army, so no multiple Tomes of Furion.
Your lv 2 sorceress also has 2x Arcane items

And as others mentionned, no Banner of Hag Graef on Corsairs.

[Sarcon]

Sarcon thought Lokhir was a Lord I guess? Also Sarcon, Tome of Furion + Staff of Sorcery is 50 pts I think.

Yea, my bad, I thought lokhir was a lord. I never use special characters myself anyways. Missed out on the tome aswel, thouhgt it was 25 pts. My apologies, I'll edit my earlier post.

[Dark_archon]

Cheers guys for the points, the hag banner was a mistake as id misread the points cost as being 25, so ill take that one on the chin

Will have to remove a tome of furion off one of the two sorcs in the top list, again fair enough.

right moving on:

In terms of the command on the spearman unit I agree this should go and up the number of models in that unit, however if im reading my rules correctly I believe u can only sac a model once per magic phase, meaning no more than 6 sacs at worst, probably more likely 3-4 per game, leaving actually a semi useable unit, which is why I looked at upping their command, on second inspection this is probably a waste of points.

In reply to Dreske I like the idea, again not entirely sure why I felt the need to give xbowman a banner and a musician, if they are in combat they are as good as dead anyway i think, though the extra BS on the lordling can be useful imo.

In terms of my 2 command set ups (assuming some tweaking to fix the magic item problems on the first set up) what do people think would be better?

Regards,

Arch

[Dreske]

I believe u can only sac a model once per magic phase,

It's once per spell, so your Supreme Sorceress with 4 spells (+1 for POD) can potentially sac up to 5 pd generators per magic phase. If you do this I highly recommend using the Pearl of Infinite Bleakness on her as well.

[Dark_archon]

Currently looking at something like this, as i really dont think the corsairs were giving much to the list, tried to take as much of the previous advise as possible:
Morathi Darksword, dawnbreaker cloak (505)
Sorceress Level 2, tome of furion, Lifetaker (180)
Assassin Hand wep, rune of khain, touch of death (151)

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 11 (110)
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 10 (100)
Dark Riders 5 Crossbows, musician (117)
Spearman 12 (72)
Hydra 1 (175)
Cold one Knights 5 Full command (175)
Executioners 10 Full command (150)
Reaper Bolt Thrower 2 (200)
Harpies 6 (66)
Total: 2001

[Silverheimdall]

Again you have Tome of Furion (Arcane) and Staff of Sorcery (Common Arcane)

That's 2 Arcane Items on one character - an illegal setup.

Take Lifetaker and tome of Furion or 2 Dispel scrolls, those 2 setups are equally useful.

Remove those 12 Warriors and put points for Shields on the RXB units and a musician too.


Full command on CoK is a waste of points if all you have is 5 knights. Without command they are excellent flankers and they would cost you 40 pts less.

10 Execs with full command is quite a small fragile unit...

[Dark_archon]

Again you have Tome of Furion (Arcane) and Staff of Sorcery (Common Arcane)

This was fixed while u were writing as i noticed i hadnt changed it yet^^

Other things ill look into, though not convinced shields will be useful for RXB men as in combat im gonna die regardless, and against VC im not getting shot back at (again something to look at when i face other armies).

The logic behind having the spearman was to use them as a very defensive unit to defend the reaper bolt throwers and crossbow men, which for a very cheap unit should do a good job of holding up anything that hasnt got shot down on its way across the field.

Arch

[Silverheimdall]

You selected armour of Darkness for a sorceress.

Sorceress do not have access to mundane armor options (Light, Heavy, Cloak, etc) therefore cannot select anything from the MAgic Armour section.

Read pg 121 (I think) - Magic Items section in the big rulebook.

[Dark_archon]

You selected armour of Darkness for a sorceress.

Sorceress do not have access to mundane armor options (Light, Heavy, Cloak, etc) therefore cannot select anything from the MAgic Armour section.

Read pg 121 (I think) - Magic Items section in the big rulebook.

*grumble*

Lifetaker changed for armour, and points modified

[Dark_archon]

How about this then:

- More executioners, no command on CoK, more crossbowman.

Morathi Darksword, dawnbreaker cloak 505
Sorceress Level 2, tome of furion, Lifetaker 180
Assassin Hand wep, rune of khain, touch of death 151

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 13 130
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 13 130
Dark Riders 5 Crossbows, musician 117
Hydra 1 175
Cold one Knights 5 135
Executioners 15 Full command 222
Reaper Bolt Thrower 2 200
Harpies 5 55
Total: 2000

[Rabidnid]

Again you have Tome of Furion (Arcane) and Staff of Sorcery (Common Arcane)

This was fixed while u were writing as i noticed i hadnt changed it yet^^

Other things ill look into, though not convinced shields will be useful for RXB men as in combat im gonna die regardless, and against VC im not getting shot back at (again something to look at when i face other armies).

The logic behind having the spearman was to use them as a very defensive unit to defend the reaper bolt throwers and crossbow men, which for a very cheap unit should do a good job of holding up anything that hasnt got shot down on its way across the field.

Arch

Shields and hand weapons give the RXB a 4+ save in melee. They are also poplular targets because they are annoying, so bigger units and the 5+ save that can take a turn of shooting is a good thing. I don't own any spears, I just use shielded RXB, and the extra 48 points you pay to make your 12 spears RXB will repay itself the first time you blow a unit of fast cavalry off the table or drop a giant in one turn of shooting. I know you are fighting VC mostly, and they are still useful for peppering the enemy and hiding your lvl 2 sorc with Lifetaker and a null talisman. Shielded RXB are great, if they do need to fight, that are as good as any of our core choices.

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 13 130
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 13 130

Drop an RXB off each for shields and musos. If you can, find the points to give the CoKs a muso as well.

first turn of my first game I had a unit of 10 RXB with a Sorc lose 4 models to shooting and fail their leadership by one. They routed though a unit of 6 CoK who failed thoir leadership by one and fled off the table. Next turn the RXB failed to rally by one again and fled off the tame as well. 600 point os units lost for the lack of 9 points of musos

[Dark_archon]

Something like this then:

Morathi Darksword, dawnbreaker cloak 505
Sorceress Level 2, tome of furion, Lifetaker 180
Assassin Hand wep, rune of khain, touch of death 151
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 12 Shields 132
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 12 Shields 132
Dark Riders 5 Crossbows, musician 117
Hydra 1 175
Cold one Knights 5 135
Executioners 15 Full command 222
Reaper Bolt Thrower 2 200
Harpies 5 55
Total: 2004

Reading the rules on exe's now, and cant find where it says i can take a magic weapon on the champion?

[Rabidnid]

Something like this then:

Morathi Darksword, dawnbreaker cloak 505
Sorceress Level 2, tome of furion, Lifetaker 180
Assassin Hand wep, rune of khain, touch of death 151
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 12 Shields 132
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 12 Shields 132
Dark Riders 5 Crossbows, musician 117
Hydra 1 175
Cold one Knights 5 135
Executioners 15 Full command 222
Reaper Bolt Thrower 2 200
Harpies 5 55
Total: 2004

Reading the rules on exe's now, and cant find where it says i can take a magic weapon on the champion?

You are correct, i did edit, as I was thinking of Black Guard. Wow exes are crap now. As they are basically a CR anvil you might even be better off with a big block of Corsairs (say 20) as they have the same options standard and command wise.


How are you off for models?

It might be worth a proxy game or two for you to get a feel for what works for you. My lists are all RXB, harpies and CoKs with only the occasioal shade unit as my special slot infantry. characters are a lvl 4 and 2x lvl 2 sorc with a dark Pegasus master armed with calendor's bane for the S-7 on the charge.

[Kirkrapine]

No, it's "Once per spell casting attempt," in other words, once each time a spell is cast by that wizard. So up to 5 times per phase on a lvl 4, actually.

When fighting Vamps, you have a number of things going for you in the list for you to consider: good accuracy in combat, high numbers of attacks, and fast moving flankers.

Keep your dark riders cheap. Against the undead, you may not even want to take crossbows, as their flanking ability is what you want to use most. You can thin up the undead with ranged attacks, but you have to face them in combat eventually. For skeletons to win a combat, they have to have a large amount of static CR. you can help negate this by hitting the flanks. Therefore Dark riders are of far more value to you than cold one knights simply for speed's sake. Hitting skeletons on the flank with DR results in the skeletons only getting a 6+ save against the wounds. They lose the rank bonus, and so will only have their banner (and maybe numbers) on their side. You, however, should have ranks, flank, banner, and bonus, which could come up to 5 cr above the skeletons before kills are tallied. Make sure your kills are higher than his with assassins and you will crumble them fast.

So i would drop the knights for at least one more unit of DR, drop the commands on the DR and crossbowmen, and drop 2 of the crossbowmen (for now). I would also drop the Executioners in favor of blackguard. For one ppm more, you are getting more attacks, which is far more important vs the undead than killing blow. Just remember: maneuver and active CR is your friend.

Additionally I noticed that your spear unit is in multiples of 4. You are aware that ranks must be at least 5 wide now, right? Or were you just planning to have two ranks with a 6 wide frontage?

[Silverheimdall]

Execs can be good when supported by the ASF banner or an Assassin.

Plus the Cauldron of blood for stubborn and +1A (:

Without at least an Assassin and a Cauldron, I would never field Executioners.

[Rabidnid]

No, it's "Once per spell casting attempt," in other words, once each time a spell is cast by that wizard. So up to 5 times per phase on a lvl 4, actually.

When fighting Vamps, you have a number of things going for you in the list for you to consider: good accuracy in combat, high numbers of attacks, and fast moving flankers.

Keep your dark riders cheap. Against the undead, you may not even want to take crossbows, as their flanking ability is what you want to use most. You can thin up the undead with ranged attacks, but you have to face them in combat eventually. For skeletons to win a combat, they have to have a large amount of static CR. you can help negate this by hitting the flanks. Therefore Dark riders are of far more value to you than cold one knights simply for speed's sake. Hitting skeletons on the flank with DR results in the skeletons only getting a 6+ save against the wounds. They lose the rank bonus, and so will only have their banner (and maybe numbers) on their side. You, however, should have ranks, flank, banner, and bonus, which could come up to 5 cr above the skeletons before kills are tallied. Make sure your kills are higher than his with assassins and you will crumble them fast.

I like the CoKs for the option of giving the champ a magic weapon for ethereals, their high save, i-6 and the big bang when they hit things . They are also a third the price of DR models, unless you convert from warrior bits and glade riders, when they are about 2/3s the price of DR models.

[Shinankoku]

I've fought a number of battles against Vamps with DE now (literally, half the players in the area are running vamp lists now.) I have the following observations to make:

1) I don't think shooting is very effective at all against vamps. I reguarly leave all my shooting at home any more. The problem is, they usually all get back up in the magic.

2) I rely on combat results to carry the day. Large units, so that if you lose combat, you don't auto-break.

3) Having a unit in the middle of the board that won't break is a good thing. Someone already mentioned Black Guard. Take them! They are the ultimate anti-VC, especially at 2000 points. Bring something to round the corner and take the flank (take away his rank bonus.) CoK are perfect for this, as they won't worry about fear (they will worry about stupidity. You have to just take your chances.)

4) Combat results, combat results, combat results! Bring the Standard of Slaughter in there somewhere. In larger fights, consider the Banner of Nagarythe. You're faster than he is ... look for flanks and rears with dark riders.

Heres to giving the Vamps a (second) good killing

[Dark_archon]

After rereading all the stuff black guard get that would help against VC I think I agree they are of more use than executioners, so considering that;

Morathi Darksword, dawnbreaker cloak 505
Sorceress Level 2, tome of furion, Lifetaker 180
Assassin Hand wep, rune of khain, touch of death 151

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 10 100
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 10 Shields 111

Dark Riders 5 Crossbows, musician 117
Hydra 1 175
Cold one Knights 5 135
Black Guard 15 kouran 270
Reaper Bolt Thrower 2 200
Harpies 5 55
Total: 1999

I remain unconvinced about shields on crossbowmen, but will see how that plays out, needed to remove them from one unit to pay for the extra cost of black guard and to try and fit kouran in (tho im sure im going to get told to remove him - maybe to take full command and banner of slaughter instead?)

[Silverheimdall]

Darkstar Cloak, not Dawnbreaker.

(:

[Rabidnid]

After rereading all the stuff black guard get that would help against VC I think I agree they are of more use than executioners, so considering that;

Morathi Darksword, dawnbreaker cloak 505
Sorceress Level 2, tome of furion, Lifetaker 180
Assassin Hand wep, rune of khain, touch of death 151

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 10 100
Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 10 Shields 111

Dark Riders 5 Crossbows, musician 117
Hydra 1 175
Cold one Knights 5 135
Black Guard 15 kouran 270
Reaper Bolt Thrower 2 200
Harpies 5 55
Total: 1999

I remain unconvinced about shields on crossbowmen, but will see how that plays out, needed to remove them from one unit to pay for the extra cost of black guard and to try and fit kouran in (tho im sure im going to get told to remove him - maybe to take full command and banner of slaughter instead?)

Looks fine. With Kouran you are getting an extra attack, nifty magic armour and unbreakable for 31 points. He looks like a good deal to me anyway

Warbanner or ASF banner and a muso as well would be good though, how you find the points is up to you.

[Dalamar]

Kouran dies to ghouls though (high toughness and plenty of poison attacks)