Help me build a learning list!

[Oryxwild]

TL; DR - Help me make an all-comers list to learn the game and the race with. I don't own any harpies.

I'm new to warhammer - less than 20 games - but not to GW in general. I'm a veteran blood bowl and necromunda player, and I've dabbled in most of the skirmish games. I've bought a rather large dark elf collection. I've read a lot of army list/tactics articles here on druchii.net, and I've fooled around with a number of armies at the local gaming store.

Now it's time to choose a force and stick with it for a few months so I can learn the ins and outs. I'm having a hard time settling on any one thing.

Here is what I know so far;

I want to learn how to move well - side charge, redirect, etc etc.
I'm not very interested in asf blackguard.
Magic has been very disappointing, and I'm overall not a huge fan of it.
Shooting has also proved somewhat lackluster, and is generally hard for me to get into. It's nice to roll a lot of dice, and sometimes it works wonders.

My store has an odd comp system ( http://www.greatescapegames.com/?page_id=138 ) which strongly discourages a lot of shooting (even handbows and rending stars assassins count full points towards the shooting comp hit).

Here is the list I have come up with. I expect it to be an aggressive, movement/combat army. I'd like your input on a) whether, at the point when I develop skills, it will work, and b) if there are any major weaknesses I haven't really seen yet.

I am distinctly lacking in some models, and I'll discuss this after the list.

And without further ado, here is the list.

Dreadlord
dark steed, armor of darkness, crimson death, ring of hotek

Master
BSB, dark steed, pendant of khaeleth, heavy armor, shield, sword of might

Assassin
manbane, rending stars, XHW

3 x 5 Dark Riders
musicians

5 Dark Riders
musician, standard bearer

25 Warriors
FC, Warbanner

25 Warriors
FC

10 Corsairs
RHB, musician

10 Corsairs
RHB

2 x 5 Cold One Knights
musicians

5 Shades
great weapons

War Hydra

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

The general idea is that the corsairs screen the warriors, fire into things that charge them, sacrifice themselves, and generally allow me to get the charge with units that matter, while hopefully taking a rank bonus off of anything in the very front. Dark riders march block and sidecharge to get rid of ranks; cold ones either charge from in back of the corsairs, or support the warrior blocks from the flank. Hydra rampages on flanks, shades snipe things, assassin goes wherever I think he'll make either the biggest difference or be the biggest surprise. Bolt throwers are there for large targets and to take rank bonuses off units. Unkillable BSB is for things like flamers.

I know I'm quite weak to tzeentch magic, or generally any 1-2dice castings. I feel like 150 points is too much for a scroll caddy, and 185 is more than I want to spend on magic. Moreover, I've had absolutely terrible luck with magic so far, and I'm a bit gunshy of it.

I also feel like I'm quite weak to shooting in general, but I have no harpy models as of yet, so that will have to wait for the time being.


Here is the master model list, if you have suggestions:

Dragon with rider x 2
manticore with rider
hydra x2
reaper bolt thrower x 4
corsair with xhw x 28
corsairs with rhb x 20
rxb warriors x 20
spear warriors x 68
witch elves x 7
black guard x 9
cold one chariot x 2
cold one knight x 10
shade x 10
dark rider x 20

various heroes, assassins, etc.

Please help me out guys! I don't have enough experience to know what is going to work out best in the long run.

[Skilgannon]

I think that is a pretty good basis of a learning list to be honest. I would only change a couple of things.

Scroll Caddie especailly for learning it is very useful an experienced player will really make magic hurt you. 175 pts for the ring and 2 scrolls and three dice isn't much investment for pure defence and will help you learn how to prioritise dispelling. If you want to learn about the game it will help to have something to think about in a phase even if it is just defensive.

You have a huge number of deflectors at the moment I would drop some to get the wizard and maybe a chariot as well (it can be a deflector and hits hard). Also RXBs are probably better than corsairs for the shooting/deflector role they can be used to target large targets and set up in two ranks to give you more flexible movement as well.

[Calisson]

I suggest you to get a balanced list. That is probably the most "comp-friendly" and it is good for learning the game as well. That is a strength of the DE, too (as Dark Alliance is famous to say).


Dreadlord dark steed, armor of darkness, crimson death, ring of hotekNot sure about the ring if the comp system discourages heavy magic. Try and see.

Master BSB, dark steed, pendant of khaeleth, heavy armor, shield, sword of mightMy favourite!

Assassin manbane, rending stars, XHWSeveral possible builds. With your comp system, there is no need to pop chariots. However, he'll be nice with shades.

3 x 5 Dark Riders musicians 3 units?
5 Dark Riders musician, standard bearer 4 units? and with a standard?
That is really a lot of agile units. Brilliant or awful according to the opponent (awful if he is shooty). I understand no RXB?

25 Warriors FC, Warbanner
25 Warriors FC
Very strong SCR. Do they have shields or not? (both options are valid).

10 Corsairs RHB, musician
10 Corsairs RHB
The general idea is that the corsairs screen the warriors
It does not make any sense: warriors need no screen, they are cheaper than anything. These corsairs are meant to screen elites, not core troops.
Still fun to play. But they are calling you to buy BG (making good tar pits near the BSB - no need for ASF).

2 x 5 Cold One Knights musiciansGreat to learn tactics. Keep the lord not too far.

5 Shades great weaponsI've been disappointed by them: not enough shades to justify the GW. Better AHW or nothing when they are so few of them.

War Hydra
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
Perfect rare combo for a balanced list.

I feel like 150 points is too much for a scroll caddy, and 185 is more than I want to spend on magic. Moreover, I've had absolutely terrible luck with magic so far, and I'm a bit gunshy of it. ext time, try a level 2 with dark magic, burning all dice on a single spell.

Overall, your list departs from a real balanced one because of:
A little too many DR. 3 units are enough.
Not enough shooting (RHB does not count as shooty). You could replace some RHB corsairs with RXBmen.
Not enough magic. It could be OK with a lot more shooting. In your case, I'd advocate for a second sorceress (you can drop the Shades to get the pts).
Really, if you use only Dark Magic, even a single level 2 is easy to use: burn all 4 dice with a single, useful spell.
With 2 lev 2 sorceresses, it is the same, but before, you cast PoD with the other one and see what happens. If ever the opponent lets it off, you cast whatever spell you have as a bonus. Hopefully, it'll burn DD.


Here is the master model list, if you have suggestions:
Dragon with rider x 2One is easy to use. But 2?
manticore with riderNot for beginners.
hydra x2 Dragon companions!
reaper bolt thrower x 4 Allow you to try all rare combos.
corsair with xhw x 28You need to try one large unit with FC and SSS.
corsairs with rhb x 20Only if there is some elite to screen.
rxb warriors x 20Great.
spear warriors x 68That is a lot!
witch elves x 7 A very small unit. Not much use.
black guard x 9 Try this unit sometimes.
cold one chariot x 2 Try one some day.
cold one knight x 10Good to learn tactics.
shade x 10That makes a good single unit.
dark rider x 20You could well try the shielded DR unit, for a change.
various heroes, assassins, etc.A COB? If not, make one with whatever you like, with 3 WE as attendants.


Please help me out guys! I don't have enough experience to know what is going to work out best in the long run.Help yourself with training. What works best depends on you and your opponents, and the comp system.

[Layne]

This is perfect, you've got enough for two entire armies there. In your position I'd just get them all on the table and do some mock ups. You say you don't want to do much shooting or magic, and you've managed to buy everything that doesn't do that, except for perhaps some Executioners.

I'd recommend getting a box or two of those. Cal sez that 7 Witches isn't much use. Well it depends, are they likely to get shot/magicked to bitz, well, in your games club, apparently not. So they make a pretty deadly little unit for chewing through massed infantry. Execs if not immediately flattened by shooting andmagic can do the same thing to cavalry or heavy infantry. A small unit of such troops is a low priority target for shooting and magic usually, and can be a pretty nasty surprise when its time to shine comes.

So I'd get some Execs, just a handful, and then get all those models on the board and screw around.

[Oryxwild]

Alright, having read all of your advice, here's what I've come up with:

2 x 5 dark riders, musicians, RXB's
2 x 5 cold ones, musicians
2 x 25 warriors
2 x 10 RXB
hydra
2 x reaper
master, same stuff
dreadlord, same stuff
sorceress, L2, dispel scroll
sorceress, L2, dispel scroll

74 points left over; I could give a sorceress the sac dagger or darkstar cloak or tome of furion and add a cold one knight to one of the units and (add musicians to both RXB units or shields to one of them), or I could take 7 witch elves. Or I could do something else completely unrelated, but I only have 16 points more of shooting allowance, and only 43 points of fear-causing allowance, and only 25 points of magic items allowance.

Additions/subtractions;

Assassin - with the scroll caddy, he puts me over in magic item %, and he's really QUITE expensive for what he does. Also I'm in agreement with Calisson - shades are quite expensive for their function, and I can't afford them if I also have RXB

Corsairs - took out the RHB's since I don't have anything to screen. I do love them though... I could take a unit of 21 with FC and SSS, but I have to drop all of my magic except the L1 scroll caddy. I figured cok + warriors is more or less enough.

Dark Riders - took them out. Someday I need some harpies... Added RXB, since I didn't have any other missile troops after I took out RHB corsairs and shades and the assassin.

@Calisson - do you think 9 black guard is enough? I have put off using them very much until I have the cash to buy another box for a unit of 14.

@Layne; I also like small, cheap units of high cas units like witch elves and executioners. More witch elves and executioners is my highest priority, along with a cauldron of blood. I love the units, and I have so few only because hte collection I bought didn't contain any of them. They're definitely on my list of things I want. I'd really love a few 20 strong blocks of both for variety and fun! I'll try some mock-ups.

Thank you all for taking the time to look at my list and give your advice.

[Vampboi]

Here is a nice learny list that you could go with, just my suggestion of course.

Dreadlord - Armor of Eternal Servitude, Crimson Death, Null Talisman x2
Master - BSB, Blood Armor, Pendant of Kalseth
Sorc - Lvl 2 Scroll Caddie
Assassin - Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight

25x Warriors - Shields, FC, Warbanner
22x Warriors - FC
10x Xbows - Shields, Musician
20x Corsairs - Sea Serpent Standard, FC, AHW
5x Dark Riders - Xbows, Musician
5x Dark Riders - Xbows, Musician

8x Shades
1x Chariot
5x Knights
5x Knights

2x Bolt Throwers
1x Hydra

This comes to 2500pts (not sure how many you wanted) and gives you a nice variety of units to try out. Gives you 3 blocks of core infantry and 3 "hammer units" to support them. Granted the hammers are stupid, but in my game experience it hasn't made too huge a difference in the end.

I think you'll find that a lvl 2 scroll caddy with the 2x null talismans on the lord, total of 3dd, 2 scrolls, one unit with MR2 will give you a nice magic defense and the sorc will actually be able to do something during the magic phase. I know you said you are unimpressed with magic so far but I think you'll find if you don't really rely on the magic, it only makes your game better when it does something. Don't overlook the power of our 1st spell, it's probably the best 1st level spell of any lore, in that it prevents shooting. Also getting a nice spell like drain life off with your level 2 who can roll 4 power dice for it, can completely change the course of battle when u hit that unit of 30 skaven and kill 10 of em and go up to 4 wounds to boot.

The flying assassin can be quite a pain also. Save him for last and make your opponent decide if he's going to save dice to dispel the cloak and lose his shooting cause chillwind caused wounds, or let your assassin fly around and charge single models or really hurt the enemies weak armored shooting units, which you said you were weak to.

You'll have shielded and unshielded warriors to try out and see which you like more. I prefer shields, but unshielded is nice and cheap SCR. Remember you dont have to use your spears. Many many times I've just used shield/hw for the 4+ armor save and just win with SCR. Keeping your infantry around for a round of combat is crucial to let your flanking hammers come around from the side. Also good to use shields/hw if you're worried about your hammer being stupid.

So mostly good luck and welcome to dark elves

[Oryxwild]

Thanks for the suggestions vampboi. The reason that your list is less workable than mine is that the comp system is quite strict but not strict enough to make it hard to get perfect comp. Therefore, most competitive armies in our local contest of champions tournaments are expected to have max or near max comp lists. Your list goes over in magic items (10% limit), shooting (assassin counts his full points towards shooting because he has rending stars), and war machines (chariots count as war machines). I've read it and am thinking about it, though!

[Calisson]

9 BG is sure enough for a unit! Keep them close to the BSB and that's the best tar pit you've got.
Also, I understand well your wish to field the RHB cowboys corsairs. Take one unit instead of one RXBmen and see how it goes. The'll screen the BG, who need them, being so few.

[Vampboi]

Well dang didn't I posted that after not seeing you'd posted a refined list and also without reading completely the comp hah. Ooops my bad there.

I like your second list actually. Looks very balanced and nicely competetive. I'd add a sacrifical dagger to one sorcerer, you'd be amazed how much it ups your magic phase but in your comp it might count as a power dice or 2. Power of Darknes can now be cast on one dice and if you miss the cast, sac a guy. When it works on one die your opponent has a tough decision to try to dispel the PoD or give you 1-3 more dice than u used to cast the spell. Can be really nice when u get some of our high casting spells.

I'd also throw shields on warriors and/or repeater crossbowmen. A lot don't put them on the crossbowmen but I have found that the added 10pts really goes a long way to helping them when they inevitably get into combat, and they will. 4+ save is almost always a 4+ save vs other peoples missile weapon hunters.

[Vampboi]

Man just looking at that comp restriction list... can people even play Demons of Chaos? They already start right off the bat with -20pts cause 100% of their units cause fear, are immune to psychology, and have a ward save.

[Oryxwild]

Yeah... Pretty harsh. DE are lucky, they're the only top tier army that doesn't by definition start off with less than perfect comp. I'm not a big fan of the comp system, but I also don't pay rent for the absolutely HUGE gaming space that the local store has, nor did I pay for all loads of terrain he has, so I guess I can't complain TOO much if he wants tournaments to be a certain way. Lucky me, DE are quite competitive with this comp system.

[Enkiel]

On your "next thing to buy" list, you could include a CoB. Once you tasted it, you'll never leave without it.

[Red...]

2 x 5 dark riders, musicians, RXB's
Good, but fairly standard. See my comment about dark rider strike force below: it could be a good core way of bulking up your fast attack side of things!

2 x 5 cold ones, musicians
Nice, but consider giving one a standard with the banner of cold blood, it increases their reliability a lot (e.g. you can move them into place to charge range without so much fear of stupidity screwing everyting up). It's cheap for what it does (just 31 points including standard and banner).

2 x 25 warriors
I understand that people like taking 25 because that way they can take 5 casualties before losing SCR, but this still seems like a bit of overkill. Take 20 in each unit, imo.

2 x 10 RXB
Fairly decent, but be careful with them - they can be quite static in nature and that can be limiting against big heavy cavalry units. Keep them flexible: remember, you don't need to shoot every turn to maximise their use.

hydra
Yup. Remember to use it as a mobile flame thrower as much as a fighting monster. That said, mine ate a charging shaggoth last week

2 x reaper
Good, but be careful not to let these and the RxBs turn your army into a static gunline.

master, same stuff
If at all possible, drop the pendant, just because, well, its 10x more satisfying winning without it and you minimise the risk of the other player claiming your victory was cheap. There are lots of other good protection options for a BSB (armour of eternal servitude, armour of darkness, cloak of ghrond, enchanted shield, etc).
Give him a lance too, not the sword of might. A lance is +2 on the charge (S6) whereas sword of might is just +1. You should definitely be getting the charge with a model with a 9" move!

dreadlord, same stuff
He looks decent, but I'd give him caledors bane rather than crimson death: you have the points and the ability to impale even a dragon (S7 and negates scaly skin saves) is awesome. Again, with dark elves you should be aiming to get the charge and aiming to win in the first round of combat: if its 50/50 whether you can win or not in the first round, consider not charging but moving to outflank instead! Nothing kills you faster than enemy hit backs!

sorceress, L2, dispel scroll
Consider giving her either a dark star cloak instead of (or as well as) the dispel scroll. That'll put you up to 7 power dice, still within the comp limit
sorceress, L2, dispel scroll

I think overall it looks like you have a good solid list. My sense is that you would benefit from adding a bit more weight to the offensive side of it and relying a little less on the massed infantry side of things. Maybe consider turning one of your dark rider units into a strike force rather than decoy unit (put either the BSB or dreadlord in there, give it a full command and give it a few more models), it can then be used to smash a flank or through a weak part of your enemy line. I'd even consider incorporating a chariot.

Looks like lots of others have given helpful advice, the above is just my two cents really. I tend to play a very hard hitting melee army with minimal magic and shooting, so that's my bias. The comp system looks complicated, so sorry if I suggested anything outlawed by it!

[Layne]

You should double check with your man about the Assassin. Whatever else he is, or isn't, he is still a character so he shouldn't count as a missile unit for your comp score.

[Oryxwild]

@Enkiel; Yes, I'm very excited about the possibilities posed by the addition of a COB. Just a matter of time.

@Layne; Yeah, it's ridiculous, he's just that way. Trust me when I say that his mention of rending stars means he's planning on classifying assassins as missile %. Much the same as corsairs with RHB count for the same amount of missile % as warriors with RXB. Ridiculous, but it's not my store, so I just have to live with it.

@Red...; Generally;

Hmmm a lot of food for thought. I think I'm going to take some of your suggestions Red, because I like the idea of that kind of force. Here's my revised list, which I'm going to try to learn;

2 x 5 dark riders, musicians
6 dark riders, musician, standard

25 dark elf warriors, FC, warbanner
25 dark elf warriors, FC

10 crossbowmen

5 cold one knights, musician, standard, banner of cold blood
5 cold one knights, musician
7 witch elves

war hydra
2 bolt throwers

master, tournament - pok, bsb, dark steed, sword of might, ha, shield
friendly - lance, AoES, bsb, dark steed, shield, SDC

dreadlord - dark steed, AoD, crimson death, ring of hotek

sorceress - L2, dispel scroll
sorceress - L2, dispel scroll or sacrificial dagger or darkstar cloak (really haven't decided this one yet)

My hope is that this list will;

A) Force me to develop good movement and tactical habits in order to win
B) Compete, even if I make one or two mistakes
C) Net me games, even from people who generally consider dark elves cheesy

Here's hoping!

Thanks again for the advice everyone. Please, don't feel the need to stop with the feedback! If you have any comments, thoughts, opinions, et al, I'm happy to hear and consider it all.

Joshua