My allcomer list at 2500pts (2400pts Khainite in the topic )

[A18no]

Hi guys.

I've toyed with many build, search for best unit and combo. I've even made an EXCEL document (and took near 20 hours to tweek it) that can calculate the normal outcome of any ennemy I can face. Giving best use for my cauldron in each situation (very owesome documetn by the way).

I've played it once (yesterday), and got a massacre against a vampire. The list is designed to be comp effective (their's no comp event here, but we always give cote to opponent and it count in the overall winner), but well played I'm sure that it is one of our best build possible. I've made great homework t come with it.

Fire Sorceress, lvl 4, Magic RxB, Ward 4+, Tome of furion. the fire lore is, I think, one of the 2 best lore for a solo casting (with shadow). BUT it got one very great bonus: it's range capacity. The range of all the spells of this lore are so great that you can keep her out of range of near everything else. Very good for a mage of this cost. The spell cage of fir e(or something like that) was awesome, since a reform is a movement, when my opponent won a combat and decided to make a combat reform, he took great damage from this spell!.
She join a unit of 20 RxB with shield, musician, banner (for the bonus, but for break point too).

She can give great bonus to the unit, can stay away from combat and bring lot of pain. The unit is great for the Tower scenario (can join it if I'm the starter).

I've tested this guy:
Master, Pegasus, HA, shield, Ring of hotek, hag greaf cape.

I did not great, mainly because I didn't played it right. I need to test it more, if I find it not usefull, he will be changed for a Lvl2 Shadow sorceress with tome and pendant (the lvl 4 will take my magic heavy build, dark lore and dagger in a warriors unit).

The last character is the cauldron BSB, naturally.

For other core, I take 34 corsairs, full cmdt and frenzy. They are immune to psychology (wariors can't), and with my EXCEL document, I've found that they are WAY better than warrior to break unit, even deeper one. I'm very impressed by them, and I think that warriors will only replace them If I take the dagger sorceress (but that will hurt my list)

My last core is 5 harpies. Great for many things.

I got exactly 25% in core (34 corsairs and RxB). So very optimize, maybe the less comp friendly part of my list.

In rare, I use 1 hydra. Strong, can protect my flank, will be use as a magnet for shooting, cause my special are not great against it. I mainly use her for that, and to hunt warmachine, solo characters and anoyer!

For special, I use 30 witchs with full cmdt, armor piercing and manbane. They are very strong, can destroy anything with 5+ armor or less. They are good against high toughness opponent, but my next unit deal better with them, 29 executionner, full cmdt, warbanner.

Strangely, both of them are stronger with the +1 attack from the cauldron than from the 5+ ward. I've always though that keeping more was strong, but after lots of mathing, I've found that when the first rank can survive the combat, they are very strong. For exemple, if you can keep 12 with no ward, give them the +1 attacks, you'll give 10 more attacks, if the ward can't protect at least 10 wounds (or the drop in the first rank), then the +1 attacks is better for the combat. And even with less troop if you break them you win!

I use the ward only when the first rank won't survived the combat. It's habitually possible only against horde of S5 ASF an re-roll troop, or against a hits on 2+ Str 6 undead unit...

On of the good things about the witches is the I6. With that, only pheonix guard will re-roll to hits with ASF. And naturally, with Ini 6 they strike before LOTS of troop out there, even many characters.

All of that is backed by 6 shades, 2 handweapon. They can provide little headache at the deployment, can hunt warmachines and the like

With this build, I got no Pendant, no dagger, no ASF banner, only 1 hydra, all of the khainite unit, so I really think that I can score pretty well in comp, but still win many combat.

The key in this list is to use the cauldron at the right time with the right bonus on the right unit. My excel will help me a lot in the playtesting part of the list. I've even toyed with the idea if removing the pegasus for a second cauldron... maybe latter !

An information for readers and other players: I've seen little army with horde unit. I really don't understand why. They are very strong and really deserve a look. Many players are saygin the 8th edition is not a good edition, that fantasy is dying, etc. Just to improve that, the best way to kill a steadfast unit of skaven slave is to kill the most of them, not to deny the steadfast, so take 30 witchs, and kill them, it will only take 2 round of close combat in horde formation, but 3 rounds if you stay at 7 wide!!

Thanks for the input guys! And good games!

[A18no]

No responses... too good??

For those who don't like to read, but are just searching for basic list:

Fire Sorceress, lvl 4, Magic RxB, Ward 4+, Tome of furion
Master, Pegasus, HA, shield, Ring of hotek, hag greaf cape
Cauldron BSB

765pts in characters

20 RxB with shield, musician, banner
34 corsairs, full cmdt and frenzy
5 harpies

680 pts in core

30 witchs with full cmdt, armor piercing and manbane
29 executionner, full cmdt, warbanner
6 shades, 2 handweapon

880 pts in special

1 Hydra

175 pts in rare

The list seem to be legal for ETC, and after some games and discussion with opponents, seem to be well-rounded and fun to play against.

Thank you!

[B1B]

A couple of things:
- As to no responses I am not sure, other than in general it has been quieter than usual at druchii.net since 8th was released. Not sure why but perhaps some of the more knowledgable long time players are using other armies at the moment, or they are still trying to optimize and tryout different 8th ed. builds etc.

- I only have a handful of games played in 8th but will try out a similar list as yours in the next few weeks to see how it goes.

- What armies have you played against with this list? Are they experienced players and did they have any useful feedback?

- Can you provide a link to your excel doc for others to use/try out?

[A18no]

I've played mainly against dwarf, vampire and high elf. They are friends and are good players, but not powerplayer. I'm mainly doing this list for tournement with no comp, but with friendly score.

For my excel document, it could be a pleasure to give it to all Druchii player, but I don't know how to put it on the net.... And it will only work on new excel, because some fonction aren't available in last version. Give my the way to post it, and I'll do it.

Thank for the reply!

[Rabidnid]

Its a very nice list

I would look at thinning the corsairs slightly for another unit of harpies as you are short of distraction units. Perhaps split off a unit of 10 corsairs and add a muso as a potential flanker/screener/bait unit.

The big witch and exe units are where the serious fighting will be done with steadfast from the CoB

[Auere]

To be honest, I love the list. But there are always configurations to do:

- corsair champion is not worth 10 points. Get rid of him.
- I dont think the witch elf champion is worth 35 points either.
- What is that warbanner doing with the executioners?? They beat up everything, and should they fail to, they are stubborn. BoDicipline or BoSwiftness, please!
- I do not understand the supreme sorceress build...? I would clearly prefer seal of ghrond over 4+ ward (might just be me) and sacrificial dagger/darkstar cloak/dispel scroll over tome of furion. I would also prefer lore of shadow or metal. Both have good range aswell.
- I would prefer Chuck Norris over your pegasus master build any time. I do not think ring of Hotek is really that good...

[A18no]

Thanks guys for the reply!!

I don't think that I need flanker, I habitually kill unit without that. But the annoyer could be a good idea. Problem is that I have exactly 25% or core troop. So I can't remove corsair to put harpies.

i can remove the corsair champion tu put another one, but can't use the point in special. But if my champion can kill only 1 hero in challenge, he's worth his point back!!

For the witch elf champion, I approve with you Auere, I think I'm gonne remove the manbane upgrade to put 2 more witches.

the warbanner is more a test thant a final though, I'm thinking of giving them the flaming banner, always usefull for building or big regen beast. Discipline could be a good idea, swiftness I don't think, Mvt 5 is enough.

For the lvl 4, I was trying something. I like fire, very long range but found in my games that something was missing. The dagger is strong, but unit that cost 10 points or more per fig make me a little sad about killing them, and I don't like to drop fighting capacity for a little magic boost.
But I think that the sceal could be a good idea, but a ward for my only caster is a must to my taste. Tome is good, behing able to get the spell I want is always good. Cloack is my second choice, I'll give it a try.
I've tested shadow a lot and really like it, fire was my test. I'll give it some more chances... but I think that I'll go back to shadow. The basic boosted spell is my favorite of all!

I've tested the ring of hotek against a vampire... very bad. He made a miscast and got the template when in close combat... with only him alive. Killed 9 witches and he loose nothing....

I like you Chuck Norris... but why the potion? How do you play it,?? Do you play a cauldron of blood? Why not giving it the BSB? Why don't you give him Whip of Agony? 4Str 5 attacks seem very strong, And striking in ini order is always good.

[Auere]

the warbanner is more a test thant a final though, I'm thinking of giving them the flaming banner, always usefull for building or big regen beast. Discipline could be a good idea, swiftness I don't think, Mvt 5 is enough.

Flaming banner is also a great idea. Banner of dicipline may be a waste because they can use the generals leadership 9 anyway.
As for banner of swiftness, I think you underestimate the difference between being able to move 5 and 6. If the enemy is hanging back at the 24' line to shoot and magic you to pieces, you have a 72,2% chance to get a charge on him on turn 2, where as without the banner your chance is only 27,8%.

For the lvl 4, I was trying something. I like fire, very long range but found in my games that something was missing. The dagger is strong, but unit that cost 10 points or more per fig make me a little sad about killing them, and I don't like to drop fighting capacity for a little magic boost.
But I think that the sceal could be a good idea, but a ward for my only caster is a must to my taste. Tome is good, behing able to get the spell I want is always good. Cloack is my second choice, I'll give it a try.
I've tested shadow a lot and really like it, fire was my test. I'll give it some more chances... but I think that I'll go back to shadow. The basic boosted spell is my favorite of all!

I would rather have a better magic defence than ward save on the supreme sorceress - especially taken into consideration how much magic can hurt your list in general. I think that in your case I would consider taking both seal of ghrond and a dispel scroll along with the lifetaker. Your sorceress would then serve a more defensive purpose, but generally your list doesnt need all that much magic to help it beat up the opponent! It just need to be kept relatively safe.

I like you Chuck Norris... but why the potion? How do you play it,?? Do you play a cauldron of blood? Why not giving it the BSB? Why don't you give him Whip of Agony? 4Str 5 attacks seem very strong, And striking in ini order is always good.

First of all, I would like to say that Chuck Norris is the most broken build in the Dark Elf range, and it will not earn you any friends.
Second, I would mention that as my signature shows, Chuck Norris can easily win games by himself: He has won me more than 2000 VP in three games without any assistance from my other troops!
He has 2+ AS (1+ against shooting), reverse ward save and 3 wounds. He just doesnt die. I throw him into any combat, and in three games he has only lost a single wound. Since he never takes any damage, he does not care the least about who fights first.
He is fast and nearly always get the charge. He also has +1CR from being BSB. He has 3 (4 with potion) S6 attacks with hatred + pegasus attacks. All in all he usually wins combat by 3-5 against non ranked units when he charges in, and wins by 2-3 the following rounds.
Things that doesnt have ranks are chanceless against him: Stegadons, Wargulf, Black Coach, Anvil of Doom, Dryads, Characters on big nasties, greater demons, salamanders, wamachines, chariots, knights and monstreous infantry can usually also pretty easily be held up. Only normal ranked infantry has a chance of actually beating him, and those can just be avoided.
Chuck is also extremely good for combi charges. Him charging a flank will add +1 for charging, +1 for BSB, +1 for flank and 2-5 kills.

In your army list, I would make the cauldron general instead. It gives the witches and executioners stubborn 9 and allows Chuck Norris to serve the free role he likes. It also takes some of the attention of the supreme sorceress.

[A18no]

Some very good idea you have there. I'll try your chuck for my next game.

For the lvl 4 though, I'm not with you. The scroll is not a good thing to me, habitually opponent play Teclis/book of hoeth, or they just cast THE spell with lot of dices and chances is that they will get the IF. But I'm really thinking about giving her the sceal. More If i play Chuck cause the CAuldron become the general (as you said) and so the sorceress is less a target. I think the lvl 4 could be good with sceal, cloak and magic RxB. Costing a 345pts.

The final list would look like:

Fire Lvl 4 (some more testing before final decision), Sceal, Cloak, Magicl RxB
Cauldron (general)
Master, Pegasus, HA, GW, Cape, Potion of Foolhardiness, Pendant, Dragon helm

35 Corsair SSS, full cmdt
20 Rxb, Shield, Musician
5 Harpies

30 Witches, Armor piercing, Full cmdt
30 Executionner, +1 Mvt, Full cmdt (I'll try them, you'r right about the better chances to charge)
6 Shades, XhW

1 Hydra

I have 26 points left.. don't know what to do.. maybe I'll retake the manbane on the witches, Too many T5 characters out there. the manbane is more for the armor penalty, giving a big -4 (after banner), she can be very nasty at ini 6 against lot of opponents (with the cauldron giving +1A it's a wonderfull 5S6 -4 save against T5!!!! for only 45pts, better than a hero lvl.

After playing a lot against vampire count, I've found that champion in combat oriented unit is a must. When a nasty lord can kill about 10-11 of your guys, you'll cry for the absence of champion. And if you happen to kill a hero, it's free points, and the Hag can be very good at that, even the Executionner with killing blow, of the corsair with killing blow blessing.

Thanks for all the input!

[A18no]

An update:

I've tried some time the fire lore. It is quite useful, you need the sword of ruin and the cage. The first one is too good for opponent to let it go. My opponents never let it go. The last one is more tricky. But even at Str 4, you're talking of near 30% dead in a unit. When you field unit of 30-40, you really fear that spell. It made some of my opponents really think twice before moving a unit. And behing a HEX and not a remain in play, dwarf can't dispel it in their turn with power dice. And remember: with so many free reform out there, you can nullify many strategyu with that lone spell!

More to come, good year to everyone.

[A18no]

New update for my 2400pts list. The list wil be my new khainite army. I've decided to change the theme to be a corsair/khainte. They're corsair model all over the army (shuffle in the witches and executionner) to fit the theme. And I'm modelling all of them on a ship!!

The list have changed a lot:

Lvl 4 Fire Sorceress, with dagger, ward 4+, magic bow

I LOVE the fire lore. Sword of ruin, cage, fire ball (lore attribut), etc. Make some really good tacitc, and opponent are very pleased by the change. Everyone is tired of death/shadow/dark/life. She's back with the ward cause she's now my general.

Master, BSB, peg, GW, HA, Claock, Potion of foolhardiness, Dragon helm, Pendant

Great, lot of tactic, and since I've drop many fast mover, he is a must.

Cauldron

The best of all!! A must in any dark elf army!

42 Warriors, Full cmdt, +1Ld banner

My General is now the sorceress, and in that unit, she's Ld 10, not bad!

25 corsair, handbow, Ban, musician, SSS

They proved to be versatile, combo really well with killing blow, but with sword of ruin too! 25 is strange, but mainly because with warriors, i'm at 600pts of core, so 25% just right

I've never saw RxB doing good things in 8th. Maybe it's me but as close combat is done in turn 2 almost all the time, they seem to lack good target, and they always seem to shoot at 5+ or even 6+. When it's the time for stand and shoot, opponent is too close. They can't do much in combat just ground some warmachines hunter. At least a group of corsair with SSS will do some more wounds. And corsair are better against shooting (with +1 armor).

7 harpies

5 proved to be not enough in many situations, They serve mainly for warmachines hunting

30 witches, full cmdt, armor piercing banner

VERY strong, one of my best unit. I'm even considering to remove the executionner to put a second unit of them. But since I can only put 1 armor piercing banner, I think that a second group of witches won't be that good.

30 executionner, full cmdt, +1mvt

The mvt bonus is awesome, marching at 12", and the mvt even made me succed in a charge that would have been a miss at mvt 5". Str 6 is a good bonus for my army, but they are struggling with the strike last. A very big drawback... But with 30 they are more resilient. Don't be shy to use +1A with them. That bonus proved to be stronger than 5+ ward in many situation, making me won the match instead of just loosing by less (what the ward would have done)

Black guard could have a been a solution, with the armor piercing banner (in the common magic item), but they are not khainite (don't fit my theme), and 20 is really bad. At least after with playtesting they proved to be dead too fast.

Hydra

That one is done. I've converted the old edition in a war hydra, look good, need peint! Nothing to say about her strengh, everything is know. She proved to be my only chance at killing my opponent 30 strong unit of swordmaster... damn they are too strong, Breath out of combat have killed 21 the last time!!! The look on his face!

Conclusion:

32% in character
25% core, 29% with harpies
32% special
7% rare
138 figs

Fit well in ANY comp system, but as my common opponents are telling me: the strongest list you've ever made, we can't find a way to beat it!!

Thanks for reading, see you soon!

[A18no]

BUMP: I will try this, and need your comment please.

The list have changed a lot, I've remove 1 character to stay very low. That gave me 200pts, I thought about a second hydra or bigger units... here the one with the hydra:

Lvl 4 Metal Sorceress, with dagger, ward 4+, magic bow

I love the fire lore.But found that my army need more hex/buff and more thing against high armor. And since I've drop the RxB, the flaming swords is not a big lost.

Chuck was removed, he's good but I don't see it as usefull as and Hydra AND 5 more harpies..

Cauldron, BSB

The best of all!! A must in any dark elf army! BAck as a BSB

40 Warriors, Full cmdt, +1Ld banner

My General is now the sorceress, and in that unit, she's Ld 10, not bad!

25 corsair, handbow, Ban, musician, SSS

Still good, need more practice.

5 harpies
5 harpies

In 2 blocks, I can more control warmachines.


30 witches, full cmdt, armor piercing banner

Stil one of my strongest unit.. I've though about removing 1 unit of harpies to up them to 35, just to be sure of the horde before the contact. The problem is with playing 1 block of 35 and 1 bock of 30, I know where all the shooting will be directed at...

30 executionner, full cmdt, +1mvt

Still good, fit the them

Hydra
Hydra

2 is a lot and will get struck by comp score...

Conclusion:

24% in character (VERY low)
25% core, 30% with harpies
31% special
15% rare
139 figs

Need help, thanks !!

Thanks for reading, see you soon!

[Seralkith]

Not bad. How do the big blocks of witches perform? With three attacks I would think you'd want to divide them up into smaller units to max that out.

One thing I mishgt suggest is a death mage on a pegasus to deal with characters. Currently your quite able to take on troops it looks like, but death lore has some good tricks for single models. A lv 2 with PoK, Tome and a pegasus would be quite useful to you I think. Just drop a hydra and a few executioners (and the draich-lord he will just die) and you've got the points. Actually you could probably stand to drop about 5 warriors too IMO.

Just some thoughts. Cheers!

[A18no]

Not bad. How do the big blocks of witches perform? With three attacks I would think you'd want to divide them up into smaller units to max that out.

Hordes is the way to play 8th. I know that everyone will play like this in 6 months or 1 year (note that ).

You need to keep the first rank as long as possible. having only 14 girls won't give you a full first rank for more than one turn, worst if you face high elf often. And magic/shooting can deplete small unit.

I keep them in hordes formation until they drop below 15 if my opponent is fielding hordes. If he field no hordes, I reform them in 6 wide or 8 wide when they drop below 25 (24 or less). Giving +1 attacks from the cauldron is near always better than giving ward. Only against ASF or faster multi-attacks units, I will use the ward.

Finally: since 8th, half unit give 0VP. 2 Blocks of 15 will give half my point to my opponent (i always loose at least 15 of them in each battle, to close/magic/shooting). With one block of 30, it's full or nothing. If he can get full point with a block of 30, he would have get it with 2 of 15.

One thing I mishgt suggest is a death mage on a pegasus to deal with characters. Currently your quite able to take on troops it looks like, but death lore has some good tricks for single models. A lv 2 with PoK, Tome and a pegasus would be quite useful to you I think. Just drop a hydra and a few executioners (and the draich-lord he will just die) and you've got the points. Actually you could probably stand to drop about 5 warriors too IMO.
Just some thoughts. Cheers!

If you break a unit, the character is dead! Simple as that! I never allocate attacks to character, it's loosing your time. Habitually they are well armored/warded. But I've tried only once a sorceress on pegasus like you said, and killed a dwarf BSB in one shot.. it make me won the game. Maybe I'll regive it a try.

I can't drop warriors, 25% core remember. I'm at minimum core now.
I've played a lot with 2 sorceress, if I change back to that, it's a dark lvl 4 with dagger and 4+ ward, and a shadow lvl 2 pendant /tome. It's the strongest I've done, and one of the worst thing to face!! Death is cool, but a little to weak to my taste.

I won't drop executionners, I need the 30, but yes the champion is of little use... But if he can kill 1 hero per tournement, he's worth his point back!! I habitually challenge when I face GW wielder, so at least he strike at the same time. I can drop 1 unit of harpies and the hydra for the pegasus sorceress though... A thing to try, thanks!

[A18no]

BUMP: 2 new 2500pts lists...

Lvl 4 Shadow Sorceress, with dagger, ward 4+
Cauldron, BSB

Solid, back to shadow because I got so much more troops.

40 Warriors, Full cmdt, +1Ld banner
28 corsair, handbow, Ban, musician, SSS

Ok, minimum core at 630... I know

5 harpies

30 witches, full cmdt, armor piercing banner
30 executionner, full cmdt, +1mvt
20 black guard, full cmdt, flaming banner, dragonhelm, other trickster shard

Hydra


OR

Lvl 4 Dark, Sorceress, with dagger, ward 4+
Lvl 2 Death, Sorceress, with tome, pendant, pegasus
Cauldron, BSB

40 Warriors, Full cmdt, +1Ld banner
28 corsair, handbow, Ban, musician, SSS

30 witches, full cmdt, armor piercing banner
30 executionner, full cmdt, +1mvt
20 black guard, full cmdt, flaming banner, other trickster shard

No hydra, no harpies, no dragon helm


Conclusion:

More than 150 figs for a dark elf army! I like that!

Now I can deal more with abo and dam regen vampires and such monstruosity.

Any thoughts?? Which is the strongest, which is the best "comp wise". Thanks !