KillerK's List building - ETC attempt

[Killerk]

I have challenged myself to make a working tournament list with the following guide lines:

No shadow
No hydras
No shade spam
No pegasus

Supreme Sorceress on Dark Pegasus 370 Pts
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Dark Magic
Pendant of Khaeleth, Focus Familiar

Sorceress 180 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Metal
Tome of Furion; Seal of Ghrond

Death Hag on CoB 200Pts

Master BSB on Cold One 214 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Hydra Banner [75.0]

30 Black Ark Corsairs 340 Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Light Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Musician; Sea Serpent Standard

11 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 126 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician;

2x5 Dark Riders 92 Pts
Musician

30 Har Ganeth Executioners 403 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Musician; Banner of Murder

5 Shades 80 Pts
Rptr Crossbow

11 Cold One Knights 336 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Musician; Banner of Swiftness

3x5 Harpies 55 Pts

Models in Army: 116
Total Army Cost: 2598

The list is a work in progress so, any suggestions are welcome.

a battle report using a previous version can be found http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=104028&start=30

[Killerk]

Dude where is my list .

Well I'm not going to give you the long version this time, I'll include the short one.

Partly I challenged my self, to make a list that does not include the main stream of Druchii build's.

No deathstars
No hydras
No shadow magic
No shades spam

I started making my list, the version presented here is V 4.0.

A battle report done with one of the early versions can be found among other things here http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=104028&start=30

Supreme Sorceress on Dark Pegasus 370 Pts
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Dark Magic
Focus Familiar; Pendant of Khaeleth

Master on Cold One 214 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield;Hydra Banner

Sorceress 180 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Metal
Tome of Furion; Seal of Ghrond

Death Hag on CoB 200 Pts

3x5 Dark Riders 92 Pts
Musician

21 Black Ark Corsairs 250 Pts
Musician; Sea Serpent Standard

11 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 126 Pts
Shield; Musician

11 Cold One Knights 336 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Musician; Banner of Swiftness

30 Har Ganeth Executioners 403 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Musician; Banner of Murder

5 Shades 80 Pts

3x5 Harpies 55 Pts

Models in Army: 112
Total Army Cost: 2600

[Daeron]

Considering you have 3 units of harpies, I'm surprised to see this many Dark Riders without Repeater Crossbows. Yeah.. it's expensive.. but then they can fire their crossbows from close range more often than not. That would compensate for not taking shades.

Still, it's an interesting list. I like your choice of lores and how they are set up, but if you don't mind me asking: why not Lore of Death?

[Samusin]

indeed xbows are exoensive (would allmost force you to drop 1 harpy unit, maybe the 1 xbowmen (or just 2 to still have a níce frmed unit) and a few exe... sure te list could take it

[Killerk]

well much chaff is needed because the list it self is extremely fragile, and it does not forgive any, and I mean any mistakes, or bad roll's for that fact.

3 unit's of harpies are needed to baby sit my 3 combat block's.

While DR do most of the screening, and replace harpies if my opponent decides to take them down.

Also one of the combat units usually plays bait, it depends on opponent, if I'm playing elves it's the exes, if say chaos its corsairs.

I need to give my opponent multiple target's in order to get one or 2 block's in to combat with my term's.

Also the shades play a similar role as DR.

While RXB's are there as a bunker for my metal mage. some shooting is good to have, but in a tournament scene (with the 0-20 scoring system), combat armies are the ones that do the winning, and shooty armies are the ones drawing.

I'm preparing a tactics article on making charges, even the long ones . This is the second list that evolved from my ETC list, where I used a similar approach.

[Killerk]

Well I just attended a small 16 player tournament, using almost the identical list (for some reason I left my RXB's at home), and played with out them. Hiding the sorc was a bit of a challenge. But I took 4rd place, was tied for 3rd, but had less VP's.

So the list is playable, but need's much play testing to work properly. Will keep updates once in a while.

All battles were against good players who place high on tournament's.

EDIT: I forgot the high light of the tourney. I was pinned down by a daemon player. Had to sacrifice most of my chaff to stay in the fight. I wanted to take down the bloodthirster, as he avoided 2 traps I set up for him and it cost me a considerable portion of my troops. I saw my chance finally in the 3rd turn. By doing something my opponent did not expect. I got my sorc up to 6 W with steal soul, in the previous turn, so this turn I charged my supreme sorceress (general), in to the flank of the thirstier. What I didn't expect but made a joke, that she will slay the thirstier. And she actually hit (5+) and Wounded (6+), the thirstier faild his save 3+ and 5+ ward. Which by being a druchii obligated me to insult and laugh at my opponent's thirstier how he was biatch slapped by my sorc (she was unharmed by the daemons attack's) and then my opponent did something I didn't see coming, he failed his instability test, and the thirstier was no more.

[Killerk]

The idea is simple, adjust the previous list to ETC comp, I'm probably not going this year, but if things change then I want to be ready just in case.

Supreme Sorceress on Dark Pegasus 380 Pts
Magic Level 4
Focus Familiar
Talisman of Preservation

Cauldron of Blood 200 Pts

Master on CO 214 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Hydra Banner

Sorceress 185 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Metal
The Guiding Eye
Dispel Scroll

15 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 170 Pts
Shield; Musician

21 Black Ark Corsairs 250 Pts
Musician; Sea Serpent Standard

2x5 Dark Riders 92 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

11 Cold One Knights 336 Pts
Musician; Banner of Swiftness

27 Har Ganeth Executioners 367 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of Murder [25.0]

2x5 Harpies 55 Pts

Models in Army: 98
Total Army Cost: 2396

[Lorddrittz]

Just wondering if the Executioners have been doing the job? It seems a lot of points in a unit that strikes last.

For the same points 20 BG Banner of Murder & Muso and also 6 Witch Elves as a chaff killer/suicide unit, the Poison is good vs. high toughness troops.

You should try the ASF Banner on the CoK in a few friendlies and see how it compares with Swiftness, but would need to find the extra 20pts.

[Killerk]

Well any decent opponent will avoid the CoK, and try to use his heavy armoured troops to hit your s3 troops. with out shadow magic, when fighting 1+ save units, it makes no difference if you have warriors, corsairs, WE or BG since they preform about the same.
Having 2 units with S6, makes things harder for your opponent to get the right match's ups. Also the unit of corsairs rather small, it can be sacrificed if needed. In most games they get the KB and charge any unit containing heroes.

Going up against the CoK is always risky for my opponents, considering the range that is needed to reach them. And the potential counter of the CoK if they roll bad is devestating, so naturally they choose to go for the easy point's, the exes. with a little magic support, the exes can really shred unit's.

[Lorddrittz]

The Banner of Swiftness only adds 1" to your charge distance and the CoK's threat range, is this really significant? maybe vs. enemy cavalry?

I am not familiar with the ETC match ups which armies are the DE's likely to face?

The BG Banner Murder vs. your average Heavy cavalry with 2+ AS changes that save to a 4+ so even the non KB wounds have a good chance of doing damage.

Admittedly 1+ Knights are a different story but these are less common (Empire) and this might be a bad match up for DE's anyway?

Probably the DE's big weakness is vs. heavily armored troops which is why I favor Shadow and Metal as a Magic counter.

When I tried a list with 2 RBT's I found they were really good vs. 1+ AS knights as well as regular one's, but difficult to squeeze in to a combat heavy list.

[Killerk]

If you run the numbers that 1" make the world of a difference. Not as much as vs cav but vs infantry it huge.

While exes the change is from 2+ to 6+. Making the exes much more killy. Also exes preform much better vs monsters.
And BG can only have a max of 20, a few lucky rolls on impact hits say from mournfang's and 1/2 of you unit is gone. And we see more and more high T opponents, and with each book release the meta changes and the BG loose. Notice the How many good ETC builds included them.... I'm not sure you can find one. Same in my country tournament scene, the best placing builds no longer use BG. It's a sad truth.

In a heavy Combat build may be one RBT could be used, but I see no point.

[A.andersson]

Hey nice build! i would love to hear some battle reports especially, from etc restriction tournaments!
why do you run corsairs over spears though? more bodies to quicker break steadfast and better staiyng power for no real disadvantage?

I totaly agree about the exis vs black guard diskussion. black guard seems outdated and inferior compared to exis for just the arguments you stated, plus: stubborn (provided from cauldron) works much better with larger numbers.

i would however try some battles without the hydra banner-bsb-guy, and use the points to max out the knights and exis unit size, 14 knights 35 exis is max right?
what do you think about that?

[Killerk]

New list

Supreme Sorceress on Dark Pegasus 380 Pts
Magic Level 4 - Dark
Focus Familiar
Talisman of Preservation

Cauldron of Blood 200 Pts

Master on Cold one 214 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard - Hydra Banner

Sorceress 185 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Metal
The Guiding Eye
Dispel Scroll

14 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen 159 Pts
Shield; Musician

25 Warriors 170 Pts
Musician; Champion; Gleaming pendant

15 Warriors 93 Pts
Musician

2x5 Dark Riders 92 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

11 Cold One Knights 336 Pts
Musician; Banner of Swiftness

27 Har Ganeth Executioners 367 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of Murder [25.0]

2x5 Harpies 55 Pts

Models in Army: 115
Total Army Cost: 2398

I have a few battles almost ready, the problem is none have all the pick's, as I forget to make them once the game get's interesting. But I think I will make them any way's. Possibly tomorrow.

The BSB makes the unit output close to the damage that death stars do. And they com at 1/2 the point's.

I found in most games (could be a coincidence) but the 6 wide unit is 1 too wide, I use that to protect my bsb, I keep him out of combat. I only loose 2 attacks, and the difference between 21 and 23 attack from the top is marginal.

[Prince fabulas]

The 1" is huge I think.

For example.

Think of a turn 2 charge.

Turn 1 you march move 16" rather than 14".

Then T2 charge an extra inch.

Making a charge of 19" into 17".

Needing a roll of 9 on the dice rather than 12.

[Daeron]

I tried the same unit, but I feel the BSB is so frail. Sure, a 2+ AS isn't bad, but there's no ward unless you give him the COB buff and with only 2 wounds, he's a very easy target against any unit wider than 5 models. I need more testruns with it, but are you sure this can whitstand the onslought of a tournament list which, I think, has at least a few units capable of running in and killing that bsb?

[Killerk]

I try to make sure the ward is there as much as possible. I usually keep him out of combat, just for that reasons. So far it usually works. If he gets a challenge, and most people for some reason do, since I gave no champ, I refuse and keep him out of harms way.
I have played in one tournament so far. And if it wasn't for the first game where I wondered how much damage would they do to a savage death star, They worked fine. They killed 2/3 of the unit but then were ground down.

and he can have a 1+ save

Prince fabious - I haven't thought of that. Thx.