Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
Moderator: The Dread Knights
Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
Current Army List @ 3k pts.
v1.2
~~Battle Line~~
SS (lvl4 dark) w/ BD, BA, OTS, Dispell Scroll
30x Corsairs w/ FC
10x Darkshards
10x COKs w/ FC, [Razor]
10x SoS w/ FC, [Eternal Flame]
COC
War Hydra w/ Fiery Breath
5x Warlocks
~~Chaff Hunters~~
Peg Master w/ FA, CoT, Lance, BSB
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Rxbow, Musician
5x Warlocks
4x RBTs
v1.2
~~Battle Line~~
SS (lvl4 dark) w/ BD, BA, OTS, Dispell Scroll
30x Corsairs w/ FC
10x Darkshards
10x COKs w/ FC, [Razor]
10x SoS w/ FC, [Eternal Flame]
COC
War Hydra w/ Fiery Breath
5x Warlocks
~~Chaff Hunters~~
Peg Master w/ FA, CoT, Lance, BSB
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Rxbow, Musician
5x Warlocks
4x RBTs
Last edited by Aurelius on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
Welcome Aurelius to D.net!
The sorc BWS RHB anvil, that should be interesting to learn how it went.
The Life sorc in a shrined unit is usually meant to go in bus formation, 5 wide, i.e. 3 for the shrine and 2 for the unit. Then the sorc is safe in the rear.
In that formation, RHB got 10 shots frontally (assuming the champ gets 2 RHB) and 0 shots on side & rear. 10 S3 non AP shots won't frighten anyone. Only the shrine's 4 shots are to be feared.
In melee, it yields just a puny 5 attacks plus shrine. Again, the shrine does all the work.
Compare to AHW corsairs. 2 more attacks frontally, but more importantly, twice as many attacks as RHB corsairs against a side or rear attack, where there is no shrine involved.
AHW corsairs make the unit barely less lethal on the front, but significantly more effective on the sides & rear.
Conclusion, in bus formation, shrined corsairs better get AHW than RHB.
Now, let's examine what can be done with RHB corsairs, which shooting range is conveniently 12", same as the shrine's stare range:
you should horde the corsairs. 30 + 15 shrine = 45, that makes a nice horde 4x10+5.
If enemy at more than 17", then it has little chance to charge you and you can get closer at exactly 15", so a M4 enemy cannot realistically charge nor move backwards at more than 15".
If the enemy is at 17" or less, move 5" or less to get at 12" range for 29 RHB shots + 4 shrine shots at long range, plus the same again at long range S&S reaction
If enemy at less than 11", then charge cannot be avoided, move to make the distance 6", possibly side move so that your sorc is moved away from likely base contact in melee, and shoot & S&S at short range.
In melee, assuming opponent is 5 infantry wide, that makes 4 corsairs in contact + shrine, for 13 attacks, plus shrine attacks and special attacks.
In order to minimize the attacks against the sorceress, she should go on the edge of the unit, on the narrow 3 wide side.
C C C C shrine C C Sorc
Indeed, during his charge, the opponent has to maximize the number of models in contact.
1 wide, he will chose to touch the sorc & 2 corsairs.
2 wide, either he touches the sorc & shrine & 2 C, or he touches neither and 4 C.
3, 4 or 5 wide, he must go on the large side and touch shrine & 4 C. He cannot touch the sorc.
6, 7 or 8 wide, he must touch the shrine and will touch the sorc, but only with a corner.
Only at 9 or more wide can he touch the sorc with more than 1 model.
Add that your champ should be next to the shrine, on the 4 wide side, in order to lure any challenger next to him and away from the sorc, and finally the sorc is not that much in a danger, all the more that she is meant to regrow her wounds.
You can even add an assassin. He has in his base equipment a range weapon. That range weapon has 6" range (BRB p.91), which means that the S&S reaction will be resolved at 6", not 12", therefore everyone (including the BWS stare) will be resolved at short range, not long range.
-=-=-
The hydra should get the breath weapon rather than the spit fire, which is widely analyzed as much less efficient.
The sorc BWS RHB anvil, that should be interesting to learn how it went.
The Life sorc in a shrined unit is usually meant to go in bus formation, 5 wide, i.e. 3 for the shrine and 2 for the unit. Then the sorc is safe in the rear.
In that formation, RHB got 10 shots frontally (assuming the champ gets 2 RHB) and 0 shots on side & rear. 10 S3 non AP shots won't frighten anyone. Only the shrine's 4 shots are to be feared.
In melee, it yields just a puny 5 attacks plus shrine. Again, the shrine does all the work.
Compare to AHW corsairs. 2 more attacks frontally, but more importantly, twice as many attacks as RHB corsairs against a side or rear attack, where there is no shrine involved.
AHW corsairs make the unit barely less lethal on the front, but significantly more effective on the sides & rear.
Conclusion, in bus formation, shrined corsairs better get AHW than RHB.
Now, let's examine what can be done with RHB corsairs, which shooting range is conveniently 12", same as the shrine's stare range:
you should horde the corsairs. 30 + 15 shrine = 45, that makes a nice horde 4x10+5.
If enemy at more than 17", then it has little chance to charge you and you can get closer at exactly 15", so a M4 enemy cannot realistically charge nor move backwards at more than 15".
If the enemy is at 17" or less, move 5" or less to get at 12" range for 29 RHB shots + 4 shrine shots at long range, plus the same again at long range S&S reaction
If enemy at less than 11", then charge cannot be avoided, move to make the distance 6", possibly side move so that your sorc is moved away from likely base contact in melee, and shoot & S&S at short range.
In melee, assuming opponent is 5 infantry wide, that makes 4 corsairs in contact + shrine, for 13 attacks, plus shrine attacks and special attacks.
In order to minimize the attacks against the sorceress, she should go on the edge of the unit, on the narrow 3 wide side.
C C C C shrine C C Sorc
Indeed, during his charge, the opponent has to maximize the number of models in contact.
1 wide, he will chose to touch the sorc & 2 corsairs.
2 wide, either he touches the sorc & shrine & 2 C, or he touches neither and 4 C.
3, 4 or 5 wide, he must go on the large side and touch shrine & 4 C. He cannot touch the sorc.
6, 7 or 8 wide, he must touch the shrine and will touch the sorc, but only with a corner.
Only at 9 or more wide can he touch the sorc with more than 1 model.
Add that your champ should be next to the shrine, on the 4 wide side, in order to lure any challenger next to him and away from the sorc, and finally the sorc is not that much in a danger, all the more that she is meant to regrow her wounds.
You can even add an assassin. He has in his base equipment a range weapon. That range weapon has 6" range (BRB p.91), which means that the S&S reaction will be resolved at 6", not 12", therefore everyone (including the BWS stare) will be resolved at short range, not long range.
-=-=-
The hydra should get the breath weapon rather than the spit fire, which is widely analyzed as much less efficient.
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Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
Spit fire is garbage. Get a breath weapon. The one shot 2D6 hits + D6 thunderstomp + 8 attacks is one awesome turn for the hydra, even if you roll bad on the D 6's. On avg you should get an extra 10-12 HITS for one combat. With spit fire you have to actually use the hydras BS to hit, -1 for long range (as its doubtful you will ever be in short range). Most likely -1 for movement (or perhaps you've marched and can't even fire). Or conversely -1 for long range and -1 because the foe is charging you.... its really not worth it.
Razor standard would be more effective on the COK vice the WE. WE are blenders of light troops, and that particular standard is not overly effective with them IMHO though some players swear by it. However COK already have Str 4 and adding a extra -1 to their and the CO's attacks is excellent (-2 for those of use who are counting). Also the -4 from the lances on the charge will punch through just about anything, including 1+, 2+ saves.
Razor standard would be more effective on the COK vice the WE. WE are blenders of light troops, and that particular standard is not overly effective with them IMHO though some players swear by it. However COK already have Str 4 and adding a extra -1 to their and the CO's attacks is excellent (-2 for those of use who are counting). Also the -4 from the lances on the charge will punch through just about anything, including 1+, 2+ saves.
Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
@Calisson
Thanks!
One possibility is to reduce the WEs to 10 w/out FC in order to add an Assassin w/ AHW + ToP.
Fiery Breath was exchanged on the Hydra, as well as the Razor standard for the COKs.
Thanks!
One possibility is to reduce the WEs to 10 w/out FC in order to add an Assassin w/ AHW + ToP.
Fiery Breath was exchanged on the Hydra, as well as the Razor standard for the COKs.
Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
v1.1
~~ANVIL~~
SS L4 (life), Crown of Command, Sac. Dagger
-15 BG w/ FC and Banner of Eternal Flame
-BWS
**Utilizing bus formation 5 x 6, Sorceress Sacs and resurrects. Keep heals on BWS and/or Hydra nearby.
~~ANVIL FLANK~~
1 War Hydra w/ Fiery Breath
1 COC
30 Corsairs, FC, Ahw
~~SUPPORT~~
Master w/ GW, 1+, BS
-10 COK, FC w/ Razor Standard
-10 DR w/ musician, shields, rxb
-5 DR w/ musician, shields, rxb
-5 DR w/ shields, rxb
Sorceress (shadow) w/ Steed, Obsidian Amulet
-5 Warlocks
4 RBTs
8 Shades w/ GW
**Target chaff from multiple directions. Sorceress supports anvil.
~~ANVIL~~
SS L4 (life), Crown of Command, Sac. Dagger
-15 BG w/ FC and Banner of Eternal Flame
-BWS
**Utilizing bus formation 5 x 6, Sorceress Sacs and resurrects. Keep heals on BWS and/or Hydra nearby.
~~ANVIL FLANK~~
1 War Hydra w/ Fiery Breath
1 COC
30 Corsairs, FC, Ahw
~~SUPPORT~~
Master w/ GW, 1+, BS
-10 COK, FC w/ Razor Standard
-10 DR w/ musician, shields, rxb
-5 DR w/ musician, shields, rxb
-5 DR w/ shields, rxb
Sorceress (shadow) w/ Steed, Obsidian Amulet
-5 Warlocks
4 RBTs
8 Shades w/ GW
**Target chaff from multiple directions. Sorceress supports anvil.
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Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
Underway wrote:Spit fire is garbage.
What? What do you base this on, have you tried it? Obviously not...
//Kheel
Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
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Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
Kheel wrote:Underway wrote:Spit fire is garbage.
What? What do you base this on, have you tried it? Obviously not...
Have you tried it?
I will reiterate my argument because apparently you never actually read what I wrote.
March the hydra - can't shoot, so you walk the hydra (can't keep up with troops then). Range 8" so you have to get really close to shoot. Fail a charge you can't shoot. Suffers from -1 at long range (over 4") -1 multishot, -1 moved to get within 8" (or -1 stand and shoot). So you're hitting on 6+ most of the time.
For the same points you can have an autohit, shoot while on the march, hit multiple targets, useful in CC - Str 4 attack that never gets weaker than Str 4.
No, you obviously haven't tried it.
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Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
But against chaff, it's really good. I had a 3 wounds remaining hydra to deal with skinks, and when they fled I had a open flank on a moderate sized saurus block.
Against WoC I took out hiw haunds and the last two marauder horsies for the VPs. I had no other tool at hand.
In most games it does very little, but when it performs, it performs. That's the story about most monsters in general, and this is just another tool to make your hydra into something more than justa scary fighting monster.
My point is, if you have no big amount of arrows, the spit fire is actually a nice upgrade for only 20 points that can be used every turn, not just once. The hydra is not bad in close combat without a one time only 2D6 St4 breath. In most situations the breath is obivously prefered, but I would not go as far as to say that spit fire is garbage.
In comp systems, the breath is, not always, but some times a bit expensive. And those are the systems I play with, and that is why I have a lot of experience with spit fire.
Against WoC I took out hiw haunds and the last two marauder horsies for the VPs. I had no other tool at hand.
In most games it does very little, but when it performs, it performs. That's the story about most monsters in general, and this is just another tool to make your hydra into something more than justa scary fighting monster.
My point is, if you have no big amount of arrows, the spit fire is actually a nice upgrade for only 20 points that can be used every turn, not just once. The hydra is not bad in close combat without a one time only 2D6 St4 breath. In most situations the breath is obivously prefered, but I would not go as far as to say that spit fire is garbage.
In comp systems, the breath is, not always, but some times a bit expensive. And those are the systems I play with, and that is why I have a lot of experience with spit fire.
//Kheel
Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.
Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
The benefit of having it cost the same is that it can always be changed.
Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
It's pretty awesome to have so many different army compositions for a DE army than (6th?) MSU tactics. Other than using WE/CoB, BWS, etc. I modified my army list to include units that I currently own and also consider to be enjoyable to field. I would appreciate any feedback. Thank you!
v1.2
~~Battle Line~~
SS (lvl4 dark) w/ BD, BA, OTS, Dispell Scroll
30x Corsairs w/ FC
10x Darkshards
10x COKs w/ FC, [Razor]
10x SoS w/ FC, [Eternal Flame]
COC
War Hydra w/ Fiery Breath
5x Warlocks
~~Chaff Hunters~~
Peg Master w/ FA, CoT, Lance, BSB
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Rxbow, Musician
5x Warlocks
4x RBTs
v1.2
~~Battle Line~~
SS (lvl4 dark) w/ BD, BA, OTS, Dispell Scroll
30x Corsairs w/ FC
10x Darkshards
10x COKs w/ FC, [Razor]
10x SoS w/ FC, [Eternal Flame]
COC
War Hydra w/ Fiery Breath
5x Warlocks
~~Chaff Hunters~~
Peg Master w/ FA, CoT, Lance, BSB
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Shields, Rxbow, Musician
5x DR w/ Rxbow, Musician
5x Warlocks
4x RBTs
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Re: Raiding Ark (3000 pts)
I like the list, although not sure on the Hydra at all personally. Much better now you have the breath weapon though.