Battle against Asur

[Dreadlord Veritas]

Hello all,

I have an 2500pt open-list battle coming up against an opponent that wants a hard game, so he kind of wants me to try tailoring against his army,

He's using the following:

Loremaster, Bookof Hoeth, 4++ talisman

Mage, L2, Scroll and magic resistance 1
Sea Helm, armour of destiny, BSB.

9 Silver helms, musician and standard
15 archers, musician and standard
2 units of 5 reavers with bows, musician and standard

24 phoenix guard with full command and razor standard
30 white lions with full command and banner of the world dragon

3 reaper bolt throwers
2 units of 1 great eagle.

I usually use the following at 2400, and am unsure what to add to get to 2500.

Dreadlord, Cloak of Twilight, 1+ armour, Ogre Blade, Dark Pegasus.
Supreme Sorceress, 4+ ward, level 4, dispel scroll. - I am thinking Shadow, Life, Dark or Beasts here.

Hag on Cauldron of Blood, with the Obsidian Blade.
BSB Master with a 1+ armour and a 4+ ward, unfortunately only a Hand Weapon.

2 units of 6 dark riders with musician, standard, crossbows and shields.
25 Witch elves, with full command and the razor standard.

3 Reaper Bolt Throwers,
20 Executioners with full command
5 shades.

5 Warlocks.

A basic plan I can see is taking the Witch Elves forward into the 'Lions, clearing chaff on the way. I expect him to run the Loremaster and BSB in there, running 4 ranks of 8, so I get my full complement of attacks. I am seriously considering dropping the magic sword off of the Hag to mean I do more damage to the unit through the banner.

Beyond this, clearing chaff as much as I can, and debuffing and blasting them apart. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything I can send into the Phoenix guard's probable 3++, with a 2++ vs magic after his turn 1.

Any suggestions or notable weak points I haven't noticed in his list?

[Cobra]

I like life magic with your list personally you can hopefully dwellers those 2 big units he has and if you get flesh to stone off you can send those witches into either of those units. I would dump the executioners too because the only thing in his list you would want them to fight would be the silver helms and he wont let you get that one probably. Might want to move the bsb to the cauldron and get rid of that master that might give you enough points to add a black guard unit. My 2 cents anyway

[Haagrum]

Against a non-shooty list, Black Guard are a reasonable counter to Phoenix Guard. They have the same volume of attacks, get rerolls in every round while denying them to the Asur, and they are Stubborn and ITP (so no Fear issues). Sisters will give them some if their own medicine, although they're better against White Lions. With Wildform or Life/Light buffs, both will slaughter PG even with a 3++.

You can also hex PG into impotence. Hitting on 5s with S2 from a boosted Word of Pain, they're unlikely to do much damage.

[Dalamar]

Since you know your opponent and can tailor a list... leave executioners at home. They will do you no good. For a small price increase take Black Guard instead (spend the extra 100 points here), they rip high elves a new one. Only unit they would have trouble with is the phoenix guard.

Either Witches or Black Guard hitting the white lions will turn them into mince, even better if you can support them with non-damaging magic to ignore the banner of the stupid dragon.

Build up your witches a little, at least to 28 to have full 4 ranks. Then I would just spend the rest of the points on black guard to keep their numbers up.

So witches deal with phoenix guard rather nicely, black guard will make white lions wish they were never born while the reapers make sure his chaff doesn't prevent you from getting where you want to be.

If he's using loremaster you will face great versatility... but no really dangerous spells. Iceshard Blizzard and Miasma sound like dispel priorities as those two signatures can really swing a fight.

[Pablo]

Run life. 6 dice dwellers. Gg

[Haagrum]

Run life. 6 dice dwellers. Gg

Well, unless there's no double-6 and they scroll it.

Dwellers is nice, but it's only a 1-in-3 against White Lions, and 50-50 against PG. There are slower better and more satisfying reliable ways of killing traitorous Asur whelps who hide behind animal furs and their gods.

[Thraundil]

Since you know your opponent and can tailor a list... leave executioners at home. They will do you no good. For a small price increase take Black Guard instead (spend the extra 100 points here), they rip high elves a new one. Only unit they would have trouble with is the phoenix guard.

Either Witches or Black Guard hitting the white lions will turn them into mince, even better if you can support them with non-damaging magic to ignore the banner of the stupid dragon.

Build up your witches a little, at least to 28 to have full 4 ranks. Then I would just spend the rest of the points on black guard to keep their numbers up.

So witches deal with phoenix guard rather nicely, black guard will make white lions wish they were never born while the reapers make sure his chaff doesn't prevent you from getting where you want to be.

If he's using loremaster you will face great versatility... but no really dangerous spells. Iceshard Blizzard and Miasma sound like dispel priorities as those two signatures can really swing a fight.

What Dalamar said here. Witch elves can fight phoenix guard due to sheer volume of attacks. Black guard will rip through any high elf melee formation. Your opponent does not have a lot of flak - win the flak war, and take him out in glorious melee!

[Dreadlord Veritas]

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback, I'll take it into consideration when I am playing the game.

As for Life magic... I used to run Life frequently, and I found that I only got Dwellers and the Throne one game in three or four. While it is effective, you also have to consider that Wildform on either unit makes the spell substantially less effective. On the Lions it's down to 1/6, which is not efficient enough.

I can see Black Guard could give the Phoenix guard a run for their money, but aren't they both initiative 6, meaning that the Asur still get the re-roll? (I believe it's based off of having ASF and having your initiative above or equal to your opponents, which means we both get it? Please do correct me if I am wrong, I don't have my rulebook on me.)

Book on a loremaster does mean that he should be reliably two-dicing those spells, and I am not sure I'll be able to dispel all of them. Worth noting the important ones, though. (A high level fireball on the Black Guard above would be devastating, I note.)

[Haagrum]

I can see Black Guard could give the Phoenix guard a run for their money, but aren't they both initiative 6, meaning that the Asur still get the re-roll? (I believe it's based off of having ASF and having your initiative above or equal to your opponents, which means we both get it? Please do correct me if I am wrong, I don't have my rulebook on me.)

No. You only get rerolls to hit if (1) you have ASF and your opponent does not, AND (2) your Initiative is the same or higher than theirs. Both have ASF, so no rerolls on that score, but Black Guard have Eternal Hatred as well.

Book on a loremaster does mean that he should be reliably two-dicing those spells, and I am not sure I'll be able to dispel all of them. Worth noting the important ones, though. (A high level fireball on the Black Guard above would be devastating, I note.)

Prioritise your dispel dice. Sometimes you'll need to take a hit somewhere, but so be it. The sooner you get your Black Guard stuck into combat, the better - then you'll only need to worry about hexes and buffs like Miasma, Iceshard Blizzard, Wildform and Earth Blood.

(I truly don't understand why more High Elf players don't use Loremasters - our novelty Lord choices seem positively naff by comparison)

[Dreadlord Veritas]

I've run the numbers from a unit of three full ranks of witch elves (With Cauldron) into a unit of Phoenix guard in a 5x5 formation, and the outcome is that the phoenix guard take approximately 5 casualties, and the witch elves take approximately 5. Based on these numbers, the witch elves lose combat in the first round.

Consecutive rounds of combat result in 5 witch casualties and 4 p. guard each for the next round, assuming no loss of fighting models. This then results in there being three ranks of phoenix guard and two ranks of witch elves. Eventually, maths says the witch elves win, but it is a long and bloody grind that is very influenced by luck. If there's a way of reducing casualties on either side, (+1 toughness, armour or ward saves, etc.) then that side is far more likely to kill the opponent.

In summary: I think the maths of this combat without magical, ranged or character support is not a viable option.

Obviously, if I was taking this combat on, I'd try to cast Wildform, Mindrazor, Wither, Word of Pain (etc...) on the relevant unit to maximise chances, and with a +2 bonus over the dispel it's probable.

Basically... It's far from the certainty that people seem to think from above.

[Cobra]

I've run the numbers from a unit of three full ranks of witch elves (With Cauldron) into a unit of Phoenix guard in a 5x5 formation, and the outcome is that the phoenix guard take approximately 5 casualties, and the witch elves take approximately 5. Based on these numbers, the witch elves lose combat in the first round.

Consecutive rounds of combat result in 5 witch casualties and 4 p. guard each for the next round, assuming no loss of fighting models. This then results in there being three ranks of phoenix guard and two ranks of witch elves. Eventually, maths says the witch elves win, but it is a long and bloody grind that is very influenced by luck. If there's a way of reducing casualties on either side, (+1 toughness, armour or ward saves, etc.) then that side is far more likely to kill the opponent.

In summary: I think the maths of this combat without magical, ranged or character support is not a viable option.

Obviously, if I was taking this combat on, I'd try to cast Wildform, Mindrazor, Wither, Word of Pain (etc...) on the relevant unit to maximise chances, and with a +2 bonus over the dispel it's probable.

Basically... It's far from the certainty that people seem to think from above.

I dont think any of our units can reliably take phoenix guard with even numbers and no buffs (math hammer me if Im wrong) but remember if we are trading in equal number witches for phoenix guards that is good because they are more points and not core like our witches. I dont really think you can go wrong with shadow, life or dark magic with your list I would still go life but its really personal preference with these lores I think. If you add a handful more witches and a black guard unit while cutting the executioners I think you are looking pretty good.

[Dalamar]

I was doing the math on my phone when I accidentally hit the back button instead of another one... I was done with witch elves and a horde (at least 21 witches at point of contact) of witches with a cauldron (no magic items on death hag, but mandatory razor banner) did on average 9 wounds to a unit of 25 phoenix guard ranked 5x5 (would be more if they were wider)

As for return attacks from the PG, 3 (or 4 if champ in the middle) would be forced to attack the cauldron so lets say 4 attacks against the death hag resulting in a single wound
The remaining 12 attacks against the witch elves (skipping the fact that another column would have a bad choice between attacking the death hag or a unit champion, minimizing their damage) would result in another 4 wounds.

That's 9 to 5 in wounds

After losing 5 models witches still have +2 for ranks (exactly) and after losing 9 models the PG have +1 (also having less ranks than witches now, losing steadfast) Witches will have the banner, but so will the PG. Witches charged so we're currently looking at 9+2+1+1=13 against 5+1+1=7 for a win by 6 points by the witch elves and taking away steadfast. That's on average If witches were charged, PG would gain a point for the charge, and witches would lose point for a charge as well as 1-2 wounds from impact hits so worst case scenario if witches get charged is
Witches: 7+2+1=10 against Phoenix Guard: 5+2+1+1=9

Witches still win, although only by one point... and break steadfast due to same amount of ranks.

This is not taking into account the mandatory cry of war on the Death Hag, making PG take a fear test on Ld6 (7 if within general's range)

I think the odds are rather stacked in the witches favor.

[Cobra]

Looks like they take that combat then as they should thats a much higher pointed unit then the phoenix guard, you just have to make sure they arnt shot to pieces before they get there. Life magic would help you with that (flesh to stone) just saying with a decent winds roll you could force him to choose between that and dwellers. I would get them into combat asap with anything really. Maybe if you move the bsb to the cauldron you can put banner of swiftness to help with that.

You mention above maybe taking the magic sword off the hag I would do that as well. There isnt a ton of armor on that list she needs that for and that would almost pay for the additional witches you need.

When are you playing this guy because I would really love to hear how this plays out.

[Dreadlord Veritas]

Dalamar: How are you getting 7 files of Witch Elves and a cauldron to all attack a 5 file formation of Phoenix Guard? Assuming the Witch elves are 10 wide, the most you can get are 4 files and the Cauldron. This seriously impacts the number of attacks that we get, stripping it to 26 attacks from Witch Elves and then the Hag. Based on this logic, you're then looking at none of the P.Guard being "forced" to attack the Cauldron, as all the models are also in base contact with the unit. I had forgotten to take into account the impact hits from the Cauldron, however, so that would swing things a little.

Cobra: The game's scheduled for next Wednesday at my local gaming club, though I suck at remembering to take enough notes for Battle Reports, so I'll probably just give information about key combats, etc.

[Diobarach]

Going from memory but I thought PG caused fear, if so Cry of War isn't going to help against them.

[Diobarach]

I think the setup for a file of PG stuck attacking the cauldron is

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the rightmost W can diagonally hit rightmost P whereas leftmost P can't hit leftmost W.

I think the 21 comes from 4 front-rank WE getting 3 attacks + champion (with no witchbrew or fury of Khaine in effect), plus 8 supporting attacks, rather than a full 21 models with their attacks.

[Dreadlord Veritas]

Ah, yes, that makes sense.

Additionally, I've re-run the numbers taking into account the impact hits from the Cauldron, (etc) and came out at approximately the figures above... I must have made some errors in my initial calculation.

In a spare few minutes I did run the numbers on the White Lion combat, and it was brutal. I think the Lions ended up with about 12 models left, before they even attacked. (Again, not including impact hits, etc.)

From this, I can see that sending the Witch Elves into either unit is the ideal plan, but as I can't guarantee getting both of them I need something else to deal with the White Lions. The suggested unit of 20 Black Guard would work, as they would do a very similar thing to the 'Lions. The only alternative I could think of would be Cold One Knights, and I don't think that heavy armour elves are a suitable target for them.

If I drop the BSB onto the Hag, I might even be able to get a cheap Magic Resistance master into the master instead of survivability, to minimise the impact of Direct Damage...

[Diobarach]

You could try cold one knights, if your sorceress takes lore of life, you could put her on a cold one and join the unit. I don't see any anti-regen so earthblood will help keep your knights alive if you get it off. I don't see anyone in your list with OTS, so you could also try putting a master on cold one with a halberd and OTS. You might be able to grind his phoenix guard down with the knights.

Edit: Actually loremaster gets searing doom from lore of metal, cold one knights are a bad idea.

If you don't go with cold ones, you might want to change up your dreadlord's gear. Ogre blade isn't doing a whole lot, his entire army is T3 in CC (oops I think eagles are T4) and the only really high armor is his silver helms. You might want to go low budget and just give your dreadlord a halberd (white lions don't get 2++ that way), maybe something like:
DL, Cloak of twilight, Dawnstone, Other trickster's shard, dragonhelm, halberd

Edit: Can't have cloak of twilight and OTS either, both enchanted items.

[Dreadlord Veritas]

Based on the feedback I've received, I think I am going to go with the following:

Dreadlord, Cloak, Pegasus, Halberd, (Other) Cloak, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Other Tricksters Shard
Supreme Sorc. (Lore undecided), 4++, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
Death Hag BSB, Cauldron of Blood
Master, Halberd, Ring of Hotek, Heavy armour, sea dragon cloak

32 Witch elves, full command, razor standard
6 dark riders, fully kitted with standard
6 dark riders, fully kitted with standard

20 Black Guard, full command. (No banner, but I could shave points to put one on them.)
3 reaper bolt throwers
5 shades, additional hand weapons

5 warlocks

Tactics are largely what's been stated above... Try to get the Black Guard into melee with stuff they'll kill, the Witch elves into combat with *anything* and use the rest to clear chaff/warmachines and chaff things.

I am not convinced by the setup on the master, however... Given that the Cauldron gives the re-roll to every unit inside 6", I expect that I'll get both the witch elves and the black guard with the bonus. (I know I did when I was fighting orcs, a month or so ago.) I could use those 132 points more productively, I feel.

The list comes to 2496 points, with 707 in core.

As for magic lore... Honestly, I would rather put pressure on him than play defensive buffs, so I think that Death, Shadow or Dark are my best bets. If I go Dark, I'm on a +3 over his dispel, which should just about counteract the Book's bonuses... I think Dark might be best, I just don't use damage spells on the White Lions until I've broken them in combat. I should have plenty of other targets, and they're probably the smallest threat I have to deal with.

[Diobarach]

Oops, I suggested DL with CoT and OTS, that's not legal, since both are enchanted items. I guess you'd have to drop OTS since cloak is probably more important to flying DL.

[Dreadlord Veritas]

Fair enough, I did think that it might be a little powerful as a combination. As there isn't a free magic item slot on him, I might just go for a cheaper dreadlord. Does give me 15 points to play with, but there's not that much you can get for it. Another Black Guard, perhaps?

[Diobarach]

Lore of dark certainly gives you the casting advantage but outside of word of pain and power of darkness, the other stuff he probably won't care, so he can focus on stopping word of pain. Valor of ages (or whatever their leadership reroll is) and ld 9 on PG and WL makes shroud a little less useful. Power of darkness making BG str 5 is pretty nice though.

I'd still think about lore of life though, dwellers bypasses his ward saves, you have soulblight to counter wyssan's and if you get a 3,3 or 4,4 type magic phase, you can 6 dice dwellers vs his 3-4 dispel dice. Another reason to consider life is that he can focus fire your blackguard down, just the 3 bolt throwers are looking to kill 6-8 BG a turn if all three shoot at them. If you have lore of life, and you get flesh to stone, that mitigates those loses pretty significantly, and if you get regrowth you can probably recover those loses. The lore attribute can help keep your characters alive as well.

You might want the banner of swiftness on the BG to give you a slight movement edge against his infantry.

[Cobra]

Dalamar: How are you getting 7 files of Witch Elves and a cauldron to all attack a 5 file formation of Phoenix Guard? Assuming the Witch elves are 10 wide, the most you can get are 4 files and the Cauldron. This seriously impacts the number of attacks that we get, stripping it to 26 attacks from Witch Elves and then the Hag. Based on this logic, you're then looking at none of the P.Guard being "forced" to attack the Cauldron, as all the models are also in base contact with the unit. I had forgotten to take into account the impact hits from the Cauldron, however, so that would swing things a little.

Cobra: The game's scheduled for next Wednesday at my local gaming club, though I suck at remembering to take enough notes for Battle Reports, so I'll probably just give information about key combats, etc.

A quick summary would be great thanks.

[Cobra]

There are plenty more spells in dark for elves to worry about doombolt in particular. I still like life but dark will work good as well. You can add the banner of swiftness to either one of your combat blocks (on the bsb if you want it for the witches) for the points from the shard.

[Dalamar]

Dalamar: How are you getting 7 files of Witch Elves and a cauldron to all attack a 5 file formation of Phoenix Guard? Assuming the Witch elves are 10 wide, the most you can get are 4 files and the Cauldron. This seriously impacts the number of attacks that we get, stripping it to 26 attacks from Witch Elves and then the Hag. Based on this logic, you're then looking at none of the P.Guard being "forced" to attack the Cauldron, as all the models are also in base contact with the unit. I had forgotten to take into account the impact hits from the Cauldron, however, so that would swing things a little.

I didn't get 7 files, just 4

4 in the front rank - 13 attacks
8 supporting attacks due to horde formation - 21 attacks
4 attacks from CoB attendants - 25 Witch Elf attacks

As for P.guard being forced to attack the cauldron. If the cauldron hits centrally then

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the middle PG file is only in btb with the cauldron and if positioned properly, either file to the side of the middle one should only have a choice between attacking the cauldron or the unit champion (likely wasting a couple attacks)