Power Gaming? How to play the game?

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What do you play the game for?

Poll ended at Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:28 am

To win!
8
21%
For the pure enjoyment of it
31
79%
 
Total votes: 39

Swab
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Power Gaming? How to play the game?

Post by Swab »

I was wondering what you thought about power gaming.

What is it, how do you do it, is it intentional and so on.

The main reason why I am wondering this is because of this week has been a little weird. I have gone to a different Games Workshop hobby store where the people there played entirely different from what I am typically used to.

I mudstomped everyone I played without sweating too much... it was a horrible experience for me and the other gamers. This is mainly because the two stores have two different outlooks on how to play the game. My main store, we play for the challenge and to win. We relish the opportunity to pit out wits and tactics against each other and in the end, its a good game because both sides played their hardest. This is typically what I am used to, not so much as powergaming (which has happened to be honest even in my opinion) but bringing out the hardest hitting lists without going over the top.

My list consists of 2 assassins, the pendant, ring of hotek and a lvl 2 sorceress as a scroll caddy. 12 unit squads, MSU style of play with every unit working to maximum efficiency. It isn't cheesy in my mind, I could do a million other things but it was unstoppable at that store while it was only mostly good at my normal one.

At first I thought it was because they sucked, didn't know how to play the game and so on. But they play to just roll dice. Literally, no motivation to win, just to play and throw dice and it was HORRIBLE. I felt out of my element and at the end of the game, it was a unsatisfying victory because I didn't get a mental challenge out of it, nor did my opponents find the fun they expected.

I felt ashamed and was called out as a power gamer which I am not. But it annoyed me, even when the store staff were saying it about me. I mean... was I doing wrong by playing to win and enjoying the experience of getting there or not? I don't care if I win, but I give it my best and expect the same out of everyone else. I have been routed in turn two and walked away smiling because of the brilliance of my opponent with my bad dice.

I don't know. Also, its not just fantasy. They had me blow the dust off my Dark Eldar and it was the same story in the 40K area. Finally, it wasn't all just kids my age or younger, it was the 25+ range too. What do you guys think?

Do you play for the challenge or to roll dice? Am I technically a power gamer, or am I just on a different level than they are? Competitive vs. Fun. Just looking for opinions is all.
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Post by Kefka »

I usually play for fun, it is a game after all. But that doesn't mean I don't play to win.
I build my lists to do well and be balanced, I get a good game out of it and win every now and then, which feels really great when I'm not using a competitive list.
But my friends do play a bit more competitive, so when we are preparing for tournaments or just want a challenge, we bring out the cheese (but leave the wine at home). Build competitive lists and play each other. We usually only call power gamer on the people who do have some nigh unbeatable army that they got off the net.

Those players sound a little whinny to me. What you play doesn't seem horrible (good, but not unbeatable, I've seen similar builds that are far worse). That club probably plays more for fun though, and not all too competitive. I suggest you stick with your gaming group, as people know how you play and wont call cheese on you. If you do go back to the other place, water down you list a little (scroll caddies are annoying, and it's not like DE need them).

I'm going to shamelessly promote my friends podcast here, Episode one has a bit on power gaming, check it out if you want:
http://www.auspexreadings.com/
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Post by Mr. anderson »

We relish the opportunity to pit out wits and tactics against each other and in the end, its a good game because both sides played their hardest. This is typically what I am used to, not so much as powergaming (which has happened to be honest even in my opinion) but bringing out the hardest hitting lists without going over the top.


I have a similar attitude, even though my lists are often built from 60% units I find cool and the rest chucked in because I need them.

Something very similar is happening to me at my local store. I only ever lost one game in the whole time I have played there (one of the reasons why I don't play there, even though the main one is the people that hang out there). However, I never got called a power game and never had trouble finding an opponent (unless there simply was no one there). I just didn't enjoy playing there any more. At the moment I am playing exactly your way (me and my most regular opponent both try our hardest and still are relaxed - mostly the queries of line of sight are resolved like this

Me: "Oi - can they seem them?"
Him: "Dunno... maybe. Just shoot..."

Sometimes I forget to move and the whole thing is resolved similarly. However, we both try to win and usually the game depends on one model being in the right place. Today for example I had one dire avenger on the objective which was the grand total of scoring units I had left - he had none. The whole game depended on whether that hammerhead could shoot in its last turn, and in the end I won because my bright lance just managed to score a 1 on the damage chart... The games are highly competitive, enjoyable and always very close, just like it should be IMHO.

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Post by Lakissov »

I play a similar way - really trying my best to win, becase I like to have a challenge, and I suppose it a matter of politenes towards the opponent to provide a challenge for them, too.

At the same time, there are things I never take in my amy lists - things like dragons and special characters, because I personally suppose them to be cheesy.

But honestly, it's not even the army list that makes people call someone a power gamer. It's the attitude to the game. Some people play to win, but they stay relazed and frienly. They don't try to squeeze in the ridiculous charges where they would barely even touch a unit thy target, if they make some strange wheel. They don't argue to much about rules when they are not 100% sure that they know the correct interpretation. They don't get too acute in their gaming style, because it's not the win they are actually interested in but an interesting game. If this is the way you play, then I guess the people at the store are wrong in calling you a power gamer.

As for people who just roll dice and don't even want to use their brain power for tactics - I wouldn't play such people, if I had a choice. It's just boring.
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Post by Mornedhel »

I doubt many people start their games with the intent of losing, but the interesting question is what they are willing to sacrifice in order to win. I, for example, would not go to battle with an army that I deem unfluffy. There are a lot of 'I thinks' and 'in my oppinion's in the answer to that question, and most people will have their own definition of fluffy, just as of where they draw the line between challenge-minded players and powergaming cheese-monsters.

For me, this line is defined by wether the player is more interested in winning than in telling a dramatic, epic story. It is often hard to judge, however, because I think that everyone should be free to define their idea of 'fluffy" themselves. So to some, an MSU army may even be fluffy, while to me, it is absolutely not.

In fact, I would not even mind playing versus powergamers all that much. What annoys me about some of them, though, is that they often gloat about their army's superior performance, or even actually think 'fluff-gamers' to be inferior people, just because we are not interested in squeezing every single ounce of effectiveness from an armylist.

Nonetheless, I still play to win. I like to select my army to be effective, but I restrict myself to combinations that make sense fluffwise, to me that is. In the game, I do my best to use the army most effectively, but I would not use tactics that make use of loopholes in the rules which do not make sense.
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Post by Godless-mimicry »

I play for the enjoyment purely. Losing can be just as fun as winning.

Playing good tactics and out witting your opponent however, as your group do, is not powergaming, it is just proper tactical gaming. Powergaming is making cheesy lists to win at all costs. It just sounds like the players at the other store you went to weren't as good as you were.
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Post by Crawd »

I play for fun. Good games are really awesome regardless the result.

You don't sound like a power gamer, otherwise you would have said that it was awesome, you took out every games without problems. It happens sometime that you have a list stronger than you thought, that's part of the game since you don't always know the opponent's list.

Don't feel bad, it happened to me a few times.

The "best" time I had was a game teamed with Silver, we both used an Hydra (It was a 2v2 game 1k each) against 2 people calling the Hydra cheesy, it was pathetic to see their reaction and it was even more pathetic to see when they won the game. I had fun just for 1 thing, they showed how hypocrite they were.
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Post by Kheel »

Whats the point in winning if you don't have fun?
Whats the point in playing if you don't have fun?

I play to have fun and kill a few hours.
Though, I spend more time painting and modelling than what I do playing.

Those who play to win are usually those who pick the weaker opponents or they just simply bring out the cheese. In some cases, rules bending has been a major issue when I've been faced with such a player.

Personally, I only play against such a person once. If I even ever finish the game.
It has happened more than once that ive just packed up my things and left or just asked someone else in the room who id rather play against - just to show this: fun > winning
Sure, they might think they won just because i choose not to play anymore against them, but if that gives them joy . . heh thats just sad.

I vote "For the pure enjoyment of it".
Power Gaming however, I would refere to that as hyper active players who go on and on and on for hours, like last weekend when I played 4 games on a rowe, lasted nearly 20 hours. How I did it? Well, consume alot of energy drinks, bunker up with pizzas and other food (or have a pizza-hut close to the location)

:)
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Post by Right hand of khaine »

I play for both fun and to win.

I enjoy the hobby, the collecting, painting and gaming, meeting new people and having a good game. However, I am also a chess player and my mindset is such that I hate to lose, although I can lose gracefully and still shake hands with my opponent at the end. Besides, just as much (if not more) can be learnt from losing as it can from winning.

I do not see the point (if you more focused on the gaming side than the modelling and painting) to pay the extortionate amount of money it takes to collect a decent sized Warhammer army if you are just going to lose game after game. And yes, whilst a lost game can still be fun, it is not so if you lose time after time.

Ultimately we all play for fun, because if we did not enjoy gaming we would not be doing it, but playing to win is fun as well because although there is a lot of luck involved in the game, the army list you put together and learning the best strategies and tactics to employ is very challenging.

Some people like to just roll the dice and move models around the table whilst others like the thinking element involved in the game. There is lots to consider: your enemy and the way your opponent is likely to use them; researching into both armies; the terrain features that affect how you move, unit choices such as artillery and missle troops, possibly even which lore of magic to take; what overall strategies to employ and which tactics to help achieve them.....

I liken wargaming to chess, but with more pieces and a little bit of luck thrown in for good measure.

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Post by Rabidnid »

Kheel wrote:Those who play to win are usually those who pick the weaker opponents or they just simply bring out the cheese. In some cases, rules bending has been a major issue when I've been faced with such a player.


Sure, power gamers tend to embroider rules or cheat to maintain their aura of awesomeness.

The reverse is completely talentless retards who can't win if you draw them a map, and whine that everybody else is a power gamer because their sending single units at a time into the centre of their opponents army never leads to a victory.
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Post by Fr0 »

Powergaming is more than just playing to win. It's a style of play; being elitist, rules lawyering, a bad attitude and a list that isn't fun in the least. There are like ~10 page threads around on it.
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Post by Cailil »

Rabidnid wrote:Sure, power gamers tend to embroider rules or cheat to maintain their aura of awesomeness.

The reverse is completely talentless retards who can't win if you draw them a map, and whine that everybody else is a power gamer because their sending single units at a time into the centre of their opponents army never leads to a victory.


First off I agree with Rabidnid. Secondly I am sick and tired of hearing sore losers whine about "power-gaming". Swab, you're playing Dark Elves (one of the hardest armies to play) who are very expensive, have low toughness, are comparatively lightly armoured, whose heavy cavalry are stupid, and whose main ballistics (RxBs) are 6" shorter range than almost everyone else's. There's just no way that you are power-gaming.

There are a few cheezy character builds but in fairness every army has them. The cheeziest of all dark elf builds was the Anointed, with chaos armour, the GoP, and mounted on a steed of Slaanesh - but he's gone. Putting a Highborn on a dragon with the RoH and GoP was cheezy too - but that's also gone. Swab, I personally don't think there is anything cheezy about your list. When people loose against the RoH and PoK they don't like it - but if they win they have no problem with them. Like everything in the game these items have costs as well as benefits.

IMHO the situation you describe above is just a matter of different group dynamics. Some people have no killer instinct and when you come from a highly competitive environment and meet people who are basically just moving units around the board without tactics or strategy it's difficult to figure out what to do. If you want to hone your war-gaming skills I would recommend that you stay away from these gamers - they will blunt your tactical edge. If you want to refine your gaming for GTs etc find other competitive gaming groups.

Everyone plays to have fun. Loosing can be as fun as winning. But aimlessly or badly playing WHFB is a waste of time and money. Basically my attitude is this, if you're going to do something - do it well. Winning, loosing or drawing doesn't matter as long as you give each game your best shot.
Last edited by Cailil on Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Layne »

Well, you didn't revel in your colossal victories, so you're not a powergamer. If you're actually capable of feeling bad about winning you're not a powergamer.

I remember not so long ago a guy was doing the rounds of our local group. He was a friend of one of the more regular members, and when he played, he borrowed that guy's gear. He was poor, he lacked confidence, and he was pretty well rubbish at the game, had no clue as to how things worked. I was a certified noob at the time, and I beat the daks off him, and I tell you, the look on the poor sod's face, I left thinking I should have let the dude win. Never saw the guy in the shop again.

So I raise a third possiblilty - more important than winning, more important than having fun, is community. Warhammer gets people together.
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Post by Calisson »

Layne wrote:more important than winning, more important than having fun, is community. Warhammer gets people together.
Gee, I have to quote that one. :o
That is at least what we're doing on D.net: :)
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Post by Slortor »

i must admit i voted for win - mainly cause i have more fun in a game where i dont get stomped. Not trying to be nasty here (honest) but the worst 2 games i ever played were against armies i literally could not touch, i got depressed they got bored - no fun for anyone.

On the other hand some of my best games have been absolute massecures in my favour, mainly against a friend with a goblin army that couldnt beat mine for toffee, but we have a good laugh about the whole thing.

frankly though - draws are the best games, cause those are the ones with the most fun and the tensest results :)

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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

I am a tournament player, but i play for fun. I have a few limited hours a week to play and less when baby is around so when i play i want good games.

I went to devourer last year and came 2nd but it didn't feel like a achievement, but i went to Ches's events and came 2nd in the old rules with DE's and it was a achievement. Big wins against poor players mean nothing a small win against a good player is enjoyable and a challenge.
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Post by Enfant terrible »

Playing for the win does not, as quite a few people have replied, exclude having fun - or allowing your opponent to have fun! I DO play for winning - I'm not trying to save teddybears, but I'm trying to do my best in a WARgame. That being said, I still try to have fun, just as I suppose my opponent tries to have fun: If neither of us actuallt does have fun - I hope for the sake of both of us, that we look into correcting that (by playing the game differently or finding new opponents).

What might be considered a FUN game with one person, might in fact considered a dull POWERgame by another person.
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Post by Tony 92 »

I play for fun, and it certainly is better when you win. Watching your army getting obliterated (which happened a couple of weeks ago being Empire playing Dwarves) is upsetting although resonably amusing at points. To be honest as long as I have a good time Idon't mind if I win or lose.
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