HE MSU - old army, new rules

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

As suggested I am starting a separate topic about HE MSU under new rules. I am curious how would you, as prospective opponents, would view the army. The idea is to first take the same (almost) army, make it legal again and play a few games to see what I miss the most and how I might change it later. The list will evolve but my way is to do so in small, controlled steps.

Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod - Lore of Metal - 245

I lost Staff of Solidity so I took Earthing Rod. It is not as good insurance as it used to be but on the other hand I had some games where a miscast was acceptable and I could keep it for the time when I roll cascade. The Archmage is a little cheaper too, which is great as I can try to field more warriors. I decided not to include any new guys as I need to first check how the army I played with for some time behaves under new rules. Besides, the Archmage is still a good choice.

I haven't switched to new High Magic yet. It is a little funny as I used High Magic, I believe to quite good effect too, when not many players even considered it. Now, when the Archmage would benefit from the +1 to cast and with nice spells selection it looks like a bad idea to stay with Metal. Well, I need some time to re-consider the new spells though and how they are going to help my army. I know that Metal Lore works so I can be safe with it for some time anyway.

Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragon Helm, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow - 151

I wanted to keep him the same as he was but the suggestion to use potion of strength with reaver bow was too tempting to resist. I can have 3 S8 shots once in a game. It is quite handy, also with Enchanted Blades on. Other than that my good old bsb. I might tailor his equipment a little later but at the moment he looks solid to me too.

2 x 10 Archers, Musician - 220

A little cheaper but due to more expensive musician not much has changed here. Exactly as they were before.

2 x 15 LSG, Full Command - 420

A little cheaper too. Main benefit from Martial Prowess is that they can all fight and they can all shoot. Fine by me! I know many people think they are useless and that 15 archers would do the same job better but I like them and I will try to use them as best as I can. I think they retain their flexibility and with Glittering Robe I can have 3+ armor save on them. It is not going to save them from the hard hitters of the enemy anyway but might make a difference against some foes.

2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow - 210

Finally I can afford full equipment for them and this is exactly what I did. Again, it might be something against the common knowledge but I do like the flexibility of my regiments. And I had a few situations where lack of bows prevented me from hunting down these last survivors or lack of musician was the difference between rallying and fleeing.

I do not intend to use them as a replacement for eagles in their sacrificial role. I might use that option as I did before but it is not the first thing to do on my list.

2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 310

A little more expensive with musicians but I missed these swift reforms. I think they are better too, as they are faster (M9 heavy cavalry!) and 6+ ward is nice too. Their value as shock troops increased as well as they retained their re-rolls and with I6 they might get it against troops.

2 x 10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 300

I don't have access to cheap magic items anymore, unless they are magic weapons and I lost my favorite Talisman of Loec. They lost their re-rolls which is going to be missed obviously but I totally disagree they are going to be useless. They will hit on 3+ against a lot of regiments anyway. Enchanted Blades make it 2+ and AP so believe me, they will still hit hard. I know it from the games against other HE where I had no re-rolls at all and where we hit at the same time. It is all about choosing your combats right. It is not going to be easy and I think getting the right match ups will be more difficult now but they stay. The only thing I consider is having them in units of 12.

10 White Lions, Muscian, Banner of Eternal Flame - 160
10 White Lions, Muscian, Gleaming Pennant - 155

Cheaper but without re-rolls. Still stubborn but pelts do not protect against magical attacks. As in the case of SM I will obviously miss the re-rolls but then I will use them anyway. I will have to be more careful though. Against imperial knights they are still good as always, against chaos warriors things will look more difficult. Due to Martial Prowess Lions Cubes with a Tail might be an option too. (formation 3 x 3 + 1). They will still be good hunters.

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70

The same but significantly cheaper. Good for me!

2 x Great Eagle, Swiftsense - 120

With ASF they are going to be more efficient as war machine hunters. I am not sure about units of eagles, although it is quite tempting too. At this stage, however, I am going to use them in their old, very useful role.

The army comes to 2361 points, giving me 39 points to spend.

The options I consider at the moment:

1. Replacing single unit of archers with Shadow Warriors. I intend to use them in a unit of 10 and I want to keep the options open. I could use them as a unit of scouts or as mobile archers. All depending on the need at particular moment. I might consider the option to use them as 2 x 5 instead, as typical scouts.

2. 39 points = 3 swordmasters. Good for me!

If the army is going to be used at 2500 limit there are even more options!

As you can see my army does not really use much of the new rules. I don't have 3 ranks everywhere to benefit from Martial Prowess. I didn't take High Magic. I didn't take the Book nor the Banner. All I got from the new book is more warriors and cheaper characters. I will try it out soon, in the meantime I would love to hear what you think about it, if you have a break in your own army list writing. :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Calisson »

:o Eagles are ASF, too?

Have fun with new HE, anyway.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Omnichron »

Calisson wrote::o Eagles are ASF, too?

Yes, they can get the upgrade... and another one (Was it the one that gave +1 S and +1A or something?)

I must say I don't think metal is the way to go as you already have plenty of options that can crunch through armor. The "problem" is that you hit on the same I as a lot of other armored troops (The reason I say "problem" is because it's a luxury one as our executioners strikes last... sooo jealous about that one :lol:). However, if you used shadow lore or have a loremaster, you'll be able to reduce initiative. Also, withering is great for your shooty parts of your army... no surprise a dark elf player would suggest shadow I guess. You can still take it, yes?

High magic is too awesome to not take imo. If I was you, I'd go with that and a loremaster to be with phoenix guards (Which is just crazy good).

You lack the banner of world dragons by the way. Unless you want to play friendly games, it'd be THE item to have in almost every list. For an MSU one, I'd have it on the BSB, so you can switch what units would be immortal against magical stuff :P
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Daeron »

I never fully mastered MSU.. and unfortunately, don't have any opponents that play this way. It looks like it would be a challenge to fight against... mostly because I often rely on controlling the movement and charge phase which would be hard against this list. I see about 4-6 units I need to down before controlling the shooting phase and 4-6 to control the movement phase.

Hmm.. interesting. Luckily I'd have enough shooting power to vaporize a few units but it would be a game style I've not yet experienced.

What I really miss in this list is a simple magic missile. It's the one thing I thoroughly miss in the lore of metal list... so I would recommend picking up the ruby ring of rhuin. If you ever face a list like mine, you're likely to find some shades (or pick skinks against Lizzies). That one item is a terror for such a unit, or any ethereal unit, that it's too good to pass on. And while your list looks like it will always have enough options to make any spell interesting... I sometimes struggled with Metal as it could happen I have 2 situational spells and 2 good spells... but then my opponent knows exactly which 2 spells to block. That simple magic missile is always a good choice and ups the number of good spells to 3 which makes dispelling all that much harder.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Rabidnid »

I would go with high. I think it has some options that will benefit your list (walk between worlds) and drop one of the DP units one eagle and use so me of your spare points for a frost phoenix. T6, 6 wounds, flys and opponents in contact are ASL and -1 strength.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for your feedback!

@ Calisson

Yes, they can also have an upgrade to get AP for 5 points per model and can be in units too. I added ASF as it is handy when you have good WS, good I but only 2A.

@ Omnichron

The upgrades you are referring to are in the book but are available for a griffon, which can be ridden by a noble (hero level character) too.

My experience tells me that 1+ armor save can be a problem even for lions. I think they will be very good despite lack of re-rolls and striking at I order but I simply cannot rely on my opponent to fail his 4+ armor saves. It is like with a regeneration, in theory it is 50/50 chance to fail but in the game it might not be enough. Also, against some armies, mainly Empire and WoC, it pays off to have more tools to take/affect armor. Simply because there are so many targets that have it that my small close combat troops might not be able to kill them fast enough on their own.

I also use Metal for its flexibility. I might not be able to cast much and there were games where magic was not that significant but I am used to that from the times I used old High Magic. Basically, I know it works ok, it adds some nice things to my army so I'd rather focus first on how the army as a whole is going to work under new rules.

Your suggestion about lowering initiative is very good. I have to think about it now and I might indeed change magic lore or simply take the Loremaster. I like the idea (but not the model) so I am going to spend some time trying to work out how to incorporate him into my army.

The same with new High Magic. I agree that it looks like a very good lore. But I haven't thought it through in terms of how it could help my army. One of the things I need to decide is where to start with changes but to do so I need to play a few games to see where are the new gaps.

In the meantime I would be very glad to discuss things further. For example, how would you use Loremaster and how would you equip him. He is more expensive than the Archmage and I have noticed people tend to add full 100 points of magic items for him. Also, could you tell me more how do you see new HM supporting the army in more detail?

I am not going to take the Banner of the Silly Dragon. I find it poorly designed item and as a rule I don't like to take "must-have" things. No, I don't intend to play only friendly games either. :) I still think I might have a chance against the armies out there!

@ Daeron

What would be your army if you were to fight mine? I must admit DE have a lot of very good tools to make the life of my force difficult. :)

The idea about bound spell is a good one and I always liked to have it but usually didn't have points for that. There is a Ring of Fury in a new book which is good, old 2D6 S4 MM but it has 18" range so it might be tricky to use it. But I agree that it would be quite useful to have it and I am definitely considering it too.

@ Rabidnid

As before, I would be very grateful for more details on how would you use HM in the case of my army. I really like the idea of using army specific lore although I am a little taken aback by the fact that almost everybody is going to use it!

I haven't considered any of the new toys that much yet. I like the models a lot (with some exceptions) but I am not sure what (if at all) to include. It is a very interesting idea about Frost Phoenix. I am very curious why the units you mentioned to exchange for a monster and why Frost Phoenix. Bear in mind that I believe I see the benefits of doing so but I would love to hear your opinion first.

My only concern is that it would be a centerpiece of the army to such an extend it would attract too much attention and be killed with extreme prejudice as soon as possible!

Thanks again for feedback and please, keep it coming!
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Omnichron »

@Swordmaster of Hoeth: I've yet to try out many builds of the loremasters or characters of HE in general (since I'm mostly focused on DE and my ETC lists). However, I was considering Armor of Caledor and dawnstone in one of the builds (A bit expensive). I don't remember the exact cost of armor of caledor, but a dispel scroll in there and you have covered all you need if you only want one caster and have more points to play with units (And a good BSB). It might be a bit much protection for one char, but he costs a lot and as he will most likely be a general, losing him could be devastating.

I also like the Shield of Memrym, and if you put a magical weapon on him (Like giant blade/ogre blade), you will get reroll to hit because of ASF, high S and a nice parry save. I'd also suggest The other tricksters Shard against pesky tough heroes. You have to put him somewhere like those aggressive builds some of our lords and heroes on foot have though, out on the edges of wide troops so that there are few hits and he get to strike where he needs to.

I'll see if I come up with more and better builds for him, but I've not looked through several builds yet. He is kinda good without much more added to him though.

I think the loremaster could fit in with other units as well as the phoenix guard, but for me the PG seems to be the best place for him as it also gives the unit a 2++ against magic.

The High Magic lore is good in many ways. You could be a bit ballsy and go with an Arch Mage in a unit of WL or SM and try to get plenty of spells through for ward saves. Having a horde formation, you have a better chance of him not getting caught in too much of close combat, and with a 4+ ward (increased to 3+ if you get one spell through) might save him plenty of times. Going in close is a bit ballsy, but I think HE can pull it off quite well, especially as the mage can heal himself. I've gone with a close combat build with a sorceress before, only with 4++ and black dragon egg. Works nicely for a round of close combat, maybe two.

As for usage of High Magic, Soul Quench is perfect for getting rid of smallish units and chaff, and can be boosted to take care of bigger units as well. It's a great damage spell even though I'd usually only use the 2d6 version. If you go with a bit of aggressive AM, you will be able to use that one a lot.

Aoithesis is kinda selfexpained. It's nice for the purpose of getting your chars back up to full HP as well as adding ward. Quite nice when you can cast a lot of spells and your opponent have to decide what's important to dispel.

Arcane Unforging... god I love this spell. Not only do you gain the abilitiy of picking off a wound now and then, but you might destroy defenses of smaller chars quite easily. BSB's, and hero choices tend to lack the numbers of magic items. Removing the 4++ item from a WoC hero often means that his usual 3++ with reroll 1's become 6++ with reroll 1. So, he is suddenly very dead. Also, you can remove a lot of 2++ against flaming items, which means that your loremaster with metal can take them out at once after you remove the initial 2++. It's a great way to open up most character builds out there for the loremaster to take advantage off.

Fiery Convocation: Bye bye Skaven lists (Well, the 2++ horde of bell won't go away, but the hordes of slaves will) and most other hordes. If you get this one through, you've not only damaged a unit, but force your enemy to use most of his dice to remove it in his magic phase. It's one of the best spells out there... except against WoC, Ogres and other armies which have few models with lots of wounds.

Hand of Glory: Helps your SM and WL to strike before they get struck. It's kinda like miasma, although the usage is different as miasma is better to put on your opponents big unit and the HoG is best at your own big unit. In an MSU list, I think I'd have the unit coming into the front with this one, and let the flanking ones be without.

Tempest: At first I thought "Meh" about this one. But then again it is a large template that does S3-4 and gives them -1 to hit with shooting and CC. It gives you a nurglish protection for the first round of combat if you base your strat on them charging you and you moving on the rest of your units... if you manage to wound with it. Perfect spell to limit the shots and hits with shades and the like though, it has its uses.

Finally, the best spell: Walk Between Worlds... Why is it the best spell? The HE infantry is kinda insane, and with several synergies and flexibiliy in the magic phase, you can base your movement to some degree with what you get done in the magic phase... and then use this one to move your big block up in the face of your enemy. Oooor, the MSU one in a flanking position. It also makes it easier for your skirmishers to get in behind the protected lines and get those damned warmachines... or even eagles. For an MSU army, I think this one is a must.

So, what I'd try to get in my list would be an arch mage and a loremaster. Combinations of magic isn't easy to get, but with all the signature spells from the BRB, you'll have buffs and debuffs.... so much going on of just the lores I'm used with. I want a loremaster too! :lol:
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Daeron »

My army? Lately I'm fond of shades with Assassins, pegasus characters, DR's and some infantry backbone with RXB support.
I like to have enough mobile characters around to pick my fights. I have never been tested against this kind of list, so I'm certainly curious about fighting it. In particular, I wonder how my Shades with Assassins will manage in the mobility dance against a MSU army.. I have never been swarmed with them and usually my opponent can't afford hunting them down with a large combat block. I don't recall the last time they actually saw combat.

But bear with this theory for a moment.
- Against reavers my 9 Shade + Assassin unit would score over 5 kills on average in a stand and shoot
- Against the eagle, they score an average of 4.7 wounds in stand and shoot
- Against the Dragon Princes they score 2.5. But the threat range from the DP's is 20" I believe? The threat range from the Assassin unit is 22" (10" move, 12" fire) if I need the Assassin to get in.

The key challenge will be to avoid them being swarmed, and considering their cost, they are worth being swarmed.
Obviously, they are also a weakness: only 22 wounds on T3 with no armor save for over 600 points worth.. Needless to say how terrifying a simple magic missile would be! The Archers and Sea Guard could add to the threat, but somehow that has never been an issue in the past... When forcing them to move and firing at them at long range (or using cover) they need 6 to hit unless there's magic in the game.
Usually, my focus is to kill one of those units and disable the other one through magic, while bringing in my characters, harpies and DR's to lock them in combat if there's need for it ... or simply to divert missile fire. Generally, that leaves enough of a distance between my shades and any remaining missile units to play their game. But they never have been swarmed.. they never had this much fodder that could be sent at them. And the more I think about it, the more resilient that makes your list against this tactic.

It doesn't take much to take them down, but usually I manage to disable my opponent's means to do it in time. I sense this might be harder to do in this case. For example.. killing a few Shades in that unit may not seem like an impressive feat (and it's usually why my opponents abandon that path), but in this case it would be effective. With the shade unit down to, say, 5.. those stand and shoots won't kill the unit as a whole. Combat will occur, and though my assassin has ASF, so do your troops. This makes it possible to kill either more Shades, or strike down the Assassin. Whatever the outcome, the unit is left weakened and perhaps vulnerable to any other attack, magical or close combat. Like a card house, the unit risks crumbling down when a few pieces are removed.

Ahh.. but imagine how easy it is to do this when you have a single magic missile.. how much pressure that one spell can put on me :D I often rely on pressuring my opponent to divert the power.. but that wouldn't work on this list. Like I said.. I'm really curious to fight this :D
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Rabidnid »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:@ Rabidnid

As before, I would be very grateful for more details on how would you use HM in the case of my army. I really like the idea of using army specific lore although I am a little taken aback by the fact that almost everybody is going to use it!

I haven't considered any of the new toys that much yet. I like the models a lot (with some exceptions) but I am not sure what (if at all) to include. It is a very interesting idea about Frost Phoenix. I am very curious why the units you mentioned to exchange for a monster and why Frost Phoenix. Bear in mind that I believe I see the benefits of doing so but I would love to hear your opinion first.

My only concern is that it would be a centerpiece of the army to such an extend it would attract too much attention and be killed with extreme prejudice as soon as possible!

Thanks again for feedback and please, keep it coming!


I agree that the frost phoenix will be a stick out and so probably not such a good thing. As to what it adds, its our ultimate tarpit unit as it improves the survivability of our own units in combat with the same enemy and its T6, ward and 5+ save means it can hordes relatively safely
4 S6 magical attacks compares with 6x5 attacks from the DP and being a single monster will make it more manoeuvrable anyway. Being a flier it can lurk with intent and threaten more of the board (and threaten from beyond terrain) than the DPs. Perhaps drop both DPs and eagles and take 2 :D

Is it a good idea in a extreme MSU list? probably not, as it will add a centrepiece and focus for your opponents, but it does bring capabilities you can use and it is a tough, high leadership, flier.

As for high magic. Sigh... The more I think about it more crap it looks. It has 4 fantastic spells and 4 duds. The bad spells aren't that bad, but it reminds me of Heavens, where you can roll such a bad set of spells that your mage is practically worthless during the game. I'd nearly run it for the chance of Arcane unforging. Wounds based on armour save, ignores the pendant and will probably break the pendant anyway. So much for the unkillable BSB.

Another possibility is the loremaster with the book of ashur. All of the sigs with a 3+ to cast and dispel, he is then a worthwhile mage for the points.

The crown of atrazar looks like an excellent option for mage to protect against the stray bad roll.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

After some discussions I decided on the following list to give it a go. Not many changes but I added 2 new units and I am also looking forward to BSB performance. He was great in the past, now he has a chance to shine once in a game but hopefully in a very significant way.

I am looking forward to your opinions.

Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod, Golden Crown - Lore of Metal - 255
Battle Standard Bearer, Dragon Armor, Great Weapon, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow - 144

2 x 15 LSG, Full Command - 420
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow - 210

2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 310
2 x 12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 352
10 White Lions, Muscian, Banner of Eternal Flame - 160
10 White Lions, Muscian, Gleaming Pennant - 155
8 Shadow Warriors - 112

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
2 x Great Eagle - 100
8 Sisters of Avelorn - 112

Army total: 2398

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Clockwork »

ASF/AP eagles are broken as balls. :P

I really like the new list! You've lost overall bodies, but replaced it with more efficient shooting, in my opinion. Especially as the Shadow Warriors have such excellent models now :D I've seen suggestions that you can get 20 models out of one box by picking up some Corsair legs off ebay for the Warriors (or even archer legs for the Sisters?), so that should easily cover you for 16.

I agree that Lore of Metal is the best choice. Given the popularity of high armour saves, especially monstrous cavalry, its extremely useful - even in a list that is already bringing a lot of high strength attacks. However, I would still consider swapping for a Loremaster - you're still getting the lores strength (ie, Searing Doom) as well as a ton of versatility on top. The buffs Metal has just don't compare with Earth Blood (like Glittering Robes, but better), Iceshard, Miasma, and Wildform (which together do the same jobs as Transmutation and Enchanted); you gain two more magic missiles (both of which are Flaming, and aren't reliant on armour saves to do damage like Doom), and Spirit Leech, and you don't have to roll, so you always know you have the spells you need. The only thing that it lacks is a nuke.

Do we know if the Loremaster benefits from lore attributes yet? If so, his utility skyrockets - Wildform is easier to cast on Dragon Princes (say yes to 2 strength 6 attacks) and Great Eagles alike, Exorcism will help you against those inevitable Daemon Princes, Lifebloom restores your micast wounds, with Smoke and Mirrors your Loremaster can get out of trouble, or into it, and Life leeching brings extra power dice from Spirit Leech. What's not to love?

The temptation is, of course, to go all out on his equipment: Book of Hoeth is an excellent choice for the Loremaster as it benefits a trickle magic phase, and will help his only +2 to cast/dispel. It then leaves a lovely little space for a 4+ ward. But you could run him cheap with just the Earthing Rod which is only 10 points more than your current Archmage at the cost of a single Shadow Warrior, and have 5 points left over for Warrior Bane (better at killing characters, retains ASF, worse at rank and file), Dragon Bane Gem, or Potion of Speed (get those attacks in before everything). Food for thought.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Dalamar »

Clockwork wrote:Do we know if the Loremaster benefits from lore attributes yet?


There is no reason to believe he doesn't.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments!

Loremaster is definitely a character I would like to consider. I am not sure how to equip him yet so any suggestions are welcome! What I plan to do is to play a few games with the above list to better assess the way I can use my units under new rules. As I have only added 2 new regiments, I think the transition will be smoother.

The "problem" :) with the new book is that there are so many good choices there and so much variety that it is hard to make up my mind. Because of that and due to the fact I want to paint what I am using on the battlefield I went for small steps transition.

I see adding Loremaster as a bigger one. I totally agree on his usefulness and I got enough feedback from other players in the meantime to know that not having level 4 in the army is acceptable. But he supports the army in a different way. As one would want to cast as many spells as possible with him adding the Book seems only natural. Which makes me a little concerned as I don't like to do what others do. Seems like there is a massive release and huge amount of copies of a certain volume in the White Tower. :)

I have also noticed a lot of people use him aggressively while he is only slightly better protected than your regular mage. He can be better in the attack but he is not a killer either. I would rather try and use him as I use my BSB. In a dual role, supporting, being nearby but not engaging in combat that much.

I would love to hear about more options in terms of equipment for him. While Book of Hoeth is certainly a good one I don't think it is the only one. I also prefer to keep my characters cheaper if possible as otherwise I need to make bigger sacrifices in the units department.

As to your question, yes, he benefits from the lore attributes and that indeed makes him even more versatile. :)

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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Dalamar »

Since he only knows signature spells I think loremaster is fine without book of hoeth.
What he could use is some protection so deck him in that 50 points magic dragon armor and he'll survive a bit with lore of life attribute to keep him up. He's coming up on 300 points at this point but has a wide array of useful spells and a dual role which is good for MSU.

If he's the only wizard I think I'd also give him dispel scroll.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Rabidnid »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I see adding Loremaster as a bigger one. I totally agree on his usefulness and I got enough feedback from other players in the meantime to know that not having level 4 in the army is acceptable. But he supports the army in a different way. As one would want to cast as many spells as possible with him adding the Book seems only natural. Which makes me a little concerned as I don't like to do what others do. Seems like there is a massive release and huge amount of copies of a certain volume in the White Tower. :)


He is the obvious candidate for the book. I assume that passing loremaster school includes sitting down and making his own copy of the book as part of his graduation :D

The book, the new ring of fury and the crown of watsit I would see as standard equipment along with his big sword.

Dalamar wrote:Since he only knows signature spells I think loremaster is fine without book of hoeth.
What he could use is some protection so deck him in that 50 points magic dragon armor and he'll survive a bit with lore of life attribute to keep him up. He's coming up on 300 points at this point but has a wide array of useful spells and a dual role which is good for MSU.

If he's the only wizard I think I'd also give him dispel scroll.


Hes a pretty meh combat character for his points. He is likely the only caster so the book is useful for driving spells though and dispelling more than just trying to get spells off. I plan to treat him as a mage that can't be assassinated by a stray light horse or a couple harpies, with a really cool list of spells.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

I had my first game under new army book. Here is the report: 2400 vs. Vampire Counts

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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Omnichron »

Well done!

That VC list is close to one of my own I fielded, although I run VC lord on and some necromancers in some big blocks of infantry and TG at the back to scream the units to death... leaving the undead troops behind means that they won't get to where they are needed, and so it's easier for you to focus down his one flank.

It's good to see that the list worked well. How did you feel the WL and SM worked for you? As useless as most HE players say they are?

I think the shadow warriors would work well in sizes of 5-7 to be used as chaff, warmachine hunters and taking down small skirmish units. Sure, they do less damage than our shades, but being cheaper and having the same amounts of wounds, means that you can sacrifice them without THAT much loss.

The sisters would have been better against the vargheists when it comes to dealing damage with their S4, but you handled those easily enough.
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Clockwork »

That VC list is pretty... terrifying. 8)
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Dalamar »

It's a pretty scary VC list but I think your opponent made the biggest mistake he could've made right on turn 1.

Seeing as you deployed on the right side mostly, I'd make sure the general stays with the army that would try to cut diagonally across, Vargheists sweeping down the flank while being supported by the ghouls. Terrorgheists would form a similar wedge, but the two riderless ones would head out forward while general would hang back to usher his army forward. Fell bats have no chance of survival against your shooting so I'd just hang them back behind the building perhaps until a better opportunity arises. Seeing as you agreed that the Terrorgheist on the building is the same height as the ones on the ground, he should be able to get hard cover from the units in front of him, which is a great use for a train of zombies.

How would you react to the entire VC army coming at you in unity instead of separating and leaving their slow troops behind, making them practically useless without your interference?
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks for comments!

@ Omnichron

That is true that with infantry left behind I could detach a smaller force to delay them and focus my shooting on "big boys" :) Well, what can I say? I guess exploiting the mistakes of the opponent is part of the game too!

Lions and Swordmasters are still good troops. It is of course more difficult to use them well. The fight against Ghoul King is a good example. I would not be able to get re-rolls against him anyway but before I could still direct all my attacks against the TG and keep the re-rolls. While now I lost 5 lions to the king before I could finish off the beast! I was lucky enough that it was barely hanging there on a single wound so it didn't matter much.

There will be less opportunities now where I could march the unit of SM or WL in front of the enemy and force them to either charge alone and still strike powerfully or be charged next turn. Against some troops it will still be viable approach, especially if I manage to cast Enchanted Blades.

I simply think that a lot of people got used to the fact elves strike first and have re-rolls no matter what. So now anything below that seems like a worthless choice. I am optimistic though and do not predict getting rid of these units in the future games. I am more inclined to make changes to the army list to be able to try new things at some stage rather than because SM and WL do not have re-rolls anymore.

I really would like to use Shadow Warriors in other roles and not only as a sacrificial regiment. That is something I might do with any other unit. Unfortunately, I don't have points (at the moment) to pump up the unit to 10 (and I would love to have 2 x 10!). Hm, maybe some reshuffling is still needed? I am pretty sure the army will evolve anyway!

@ Clockwork

It is indeed! But I am glad I put up some fight here and I believe it will help me to do so in the future. :)

@ Dalamar

One day I will have that game against a very good opponent with a very tough list who does not make mistakes on his own. I will play flawlessly and create situations where he has to choose between two (or more!) evils so that no matter what he does I can win. Until that day I still need to rely on my opponent to make some mistakes so it is not that difficult to win against them :D

Well, we agreed that TG's provide hard cover to each other. Vargheists might be a good screen too but I don't think zombies qualify for that role. That does not change the fact that a unified army, moving as one, would be even tougher challenge.

I would still try to shoot at the big guys as in this particular case every wound counts. I would have more space to maneuver on the right flank and I would try to use that to my advantage. The army which sticks together in tight formation opens the flanks to the attack and that is what my army is good at. I am fully aware that fliers could still attack my units if I went too close but it would have been an interesting game of maneuver. I would try to create some small kill zones but I would not be able to move to far. My opponent would move in a way to threaten any rash approach but as the game itself showed, his army is still vulnerable.

Big infantry units would be a problem of course but then I have my redirectors. Approaching together with the infantry also creates a little tight front and I would seek opportunities to deny landing zones for the TG's as their big bases might cause them a problem or two. Then again, some charges from two directions could pin down the regiments and make them crumble relatively fast. Yes, I would have had a problem with stopping invocations but if the right opportunity arises I like to take the chances. It is also quite possible that I would have had a chance to cast Final Transmutation that always helps against hordes.

These are of course very vague ideas on how to tackle the army of my friend in different circumstances but one has to always remember the game flows each time differently and there is a constant need to adapt.

What do you think about these ideas?

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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by T.D. »

Impressive battle against an enemy list ideally suited to crushing MSU Elves!

You have real style in the way you co-ordinate your troops (don't tell anyone I said that about a HE :P)
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thank you, TD!

I am glad you appreciated my performance but we all know it was just luck combined with some mistakes on the part of my friend who led VC army. :)

In the meantime I made some more minor changes to the army list. I might use it this weekend as a friend of mine wants to come back to the hobby and see if he knows how to use his Wood Elves.

Outcasts - Army List

Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod, Golden Crown - Lore of Metal - 255
Battle Standard Bearer, Dragon Armor, Halberd, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow - 157

15 Archers, Light Armor, Full Command - 195
15 LSG, Full Command - 210
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow - 2 x 105

2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 2 x 145
2 x 12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 2 x 176
10 White Lions, Muscian, Banner of Eternal Flame - 160
10 White Lions, Muscian, Gleaming Pennant - 155
7 Shadow Warriors - 98

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
2 x Great Eagle - 2 x 50
2 x 5 Sisters of Avelorn - 2 x 70

Army Total: 2398

As you see not much has changed but I will be happy to answer any question or address any comments if you add some. :)

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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by T.D. »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: but we all know it was just luck combined with some mistakes on the part of my friend who led VC army. :)


There's modesty, and then there is putting yourself down! You should be proud of a great result against a strong list. The enemies mistakes are their problem ;) and we make our own luck 8)

Looking forward to see how you do vs the Woodies - will they out-MSU you I wonder? :mrgreen:

Edit: Forgot to ask, are you at all tempted by your new "Angry Bird" options? Perhaps in 3k lists?
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi TD,

I was of course joking :) I am very happy with the result against such a hard army. My friend is also capable general, it was just not his day. I actually have read recently something which is connected to that game in the report of another player elsewhere.

He said that very often people would like to win thanks to their tactical skill only. No mistakes by the opponent, no crazy dice rolls. But in the game (and frankly in life) it is hardly the case. What is more, if there are two opponents of the equal skill it might come down to that lucky dice roll or bad decision to determine who is the winner.

Having said that I am fully aware that in that particular match up I am the underdog and one victory does not make me an expert in terrorgeist hunting (yet! :)).

I don't know what my friend is going to bring. He is probably going to have something from previous edition and he might be limited to the models he currently has. It will be more of a introductory game to 8th edition but at the same time I never underestimate my opponent. Can be interesting too as I haven't had many opportunities to play against WE and they can be a tough army to beat too.

As to the birds I am of course tempted. Even more so due to the models, especially when I saw how beautiful they can look if painted properly. They can be great center piece of the army and I think they can be a nice addition to the army list too. As many other players I think I will be more happy with Frostheart as it helps my elite infantry a lot. Imagine what Swordmasters could do to Blackguard with the support of Snowflake :)

The usual dilemma is present here as well. 200+ points to find requires some units to be replaced by a Phoenix. Which one? Always hard choice. Also, with so many small units a Phoenix can attract more attention than necessary. It can be used to great effect sometimes but in general it is not exactly the main reason I would be tempted to add one.

It is of course easier to do so for 3000 points but then I have found out that my favorite format is 2500. I can field what I want (at least I thought so) and still have some space to deploy and maneuver. At 3000 I feel a little bit tight.

In terms of new options in general it is really hard decision now. I simply cannot have it all. There is not enough space in a single army. That's why I chose to go step by step. It can be quite a long journey :)

cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - old army, new rules

Post by T.D. »

Have you ever thought about integrating the Phoeni into a mobile cavalry-style MSU list i.e. Eagles, Silver Helms, Dragon Princes, Reavers, Flying bolt thrower, etc?

Either or both could provide a lot of options in such a list?
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