Sea Serpent Banner? Quick question.

Swab · Post by **Swab** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:45 pm

I was wondering if the Corsairs are beaten in combat but still hold lose their frenzy???

Sure, the rules say that if you lose combat, you lose frenzy but they have a banner which is making them crazy. It isn't like the banner just goes away because they didn't kill one guy.

I would assume that the banner would allow them to regain frenzy (them looking back at it and getting pumped for killing again.)

Javert · Post by **Javert** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:50 pm

Well, based on the description of the banner, you should lose Frenzy after losing the battle, but that's based on my knowledge. If the banner says it gives the unit Frenzy, that means that it's a Frenzy that can be lost by being beaten in combat unless specified otherwise.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:40 pm

x2 The banner provides frnzy it does not provide more than frenzy. Frenzy can be lost and nothing in the banner description says that it provides "eternal frenzy".

Dread_knight666 · Post by **Dread_knight666** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:11 pm

I wondered about this as well. I agree that since the description says nothing about "eternal frenzy", they most defiantly would loose frenzy if beaten in CC. But wouldn't the unit simply be given frenzy again even if they had lost combat, since it is not a physiological effect but rather a magical effect?

Konrad von richtmark · Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:58 pm

Why would it being a magical effect matter? There is nothing magical about magic - an effect is an effect, regardless of where you got it. Neither is there any "magical trumps mundane" rule in the game.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:05 pm

dread_knight666 wrote:I wondered about this as well. I agree that since the description says nothing about "eternal frenzy", they most defiantly would loose frenzy if beaten in CC. But wouldn't the unit simply be given frenzy again even if they had lost combat, since it is not a physiological effect but rather a magical effect?

There is no rule to support such a conclusion. Frenzy cannot be regained once lost by winning a round of combat.

The only occasion when I can think of a unit being subject ot frenzy again after losing it would be the slaanesh spell from 6th edition. That spell is long gone.

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:00 am

And isn't there a Skaven spell or bell effect which gives frenzy to a unit? That might be a semantics issue. Actually for the banner as well.

The question is that when you "lose frenzy" do you count as having the frenzy rule but not effects or are you just normal. If you truly lose frenzy, then presumably anything which grants frenzy, at least at a specific time such as a spell, could give you frenzy again.

Gotta play the RAW devil's advocate sometimes just so we're prepared for what other people will say - I'm not actually the type.

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:06 am

The banner doesn't lose its abilities because they lost combat so the corsairs I believe should regain their frenzy when they rally.
That makes the most sense fluffwise. The banner is making them frenzied, they get squashed and run off but then decide to fight again and upon looking at their banner go crazy again.

Melinia · Post by **Melinia** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:47 am

Bounce wrote:so the corsairs I believe should regain their frenzy when they rally

Except that if you flee while carrying a banner (the only thing that should require a rally check), then you lose your banner. So that specific idea doesn't work.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:28 am

The DE army book says the SSS standard grants the corsairs frenzy. Look in the BRB at the frenzy rules and you can see there is no mechanism for regainging frenzy once you lose it.

Skaven spells or brew or whatever aside, Dark elves get frenzy for Death Hags, Witch Elves and corsairs via the SSS. It gives BRB frenzy what else would it convey RAW or otherwise?

There are certainly enough instances of shoddy rule writing in the last few army books but this is not one of them.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:33 am

When does this unit flee? At the moment it is broken in combat. What appears to happen at that point? They drop the banner. What is the result? No frenzy anymore.

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:34 am

But you lose frenzy when beaten in combat, you don't have to fail your lead test and flee, then, you could hold. So they "lose frenzy" and the banner gives frenzy.

I'm guessing they lose it, but it is a new situation, at least to my knowledge, that therefore should be clarified just in case.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:25 pm

That's true indeed, forgot about that, my apologies :roll:

I'd say they regain their frenzy as they get it from the standard. As long as they have the standard, they are subject to frenzy

Entreri bloodletter · Post by **Entreri bloodletter** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:07 pm

I would have to disagree. The banner only grants frenzy and doesn't state that they keep it even if beaten in combat. In other situations in the game it does say that and since it is absent I would argue that they lose frenzy if they are beaten in combat even if they still have the standard.

For example, in 6th edition DE witch elves with the cauldron nearby could not lose their frenzy while in range of the cauldron. Another example I believe is a chaos banner that I believe says something along the lines of " banner grants frenzy which can never be lost", or something like that.

So since these things do exist and the SSS isn't one of them I would say they lose frenzy if beaten.

Post by **Rork** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:09 pm

Ehakir wrote:I'd say they regain their frenzy as they get it from the standard. As long as they have the standard, they are subject to frenzy

If a unit keeps frenzy even when it has lost a combat, the rules explicitly say that is the case (Such as DoC's Skarbrand). Nothing in the standard's rules says they have an exception to the normal rules for frenzy, so once they've lost it they can't get it back.

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:27 pm

Regardless its still pretty handy, makes the corsairs able to march towards a gunline without panic checks... Makes the first round of combat more effective as well...

Personally I just don't plan on Losing combat.

Asikari · Post by **Asikari** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:08 pm

The SSS (need to get the Soul Shadow Standard out of my head now) grants the unit frenzy. Frenzy rules state in the BRB that when the unit loses combat they are no longer frenzied. Thus, a unit with the SSS losing combat is no longer frenzied. As Rork and Entreri stated, effects which allow a unit to regain or not lose frenzy specifically say so in their rules. The SSS does not provide such an exception.

Riker666 · Post by **Riker666** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:20 am

But, if the unit is beaten in combat and then a character joins it, does ge gain frenzy alone?

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:27 am

Sigh why so many people trying to find loopholes?

Riker666 · Post by **Riker666** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:23 am

Because there should not be loopholes.

Asikari · Post by **Asikari** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:31 am

Because we must crush them, the druchii way. And loopholes are the druchii way.

Masterofdarkness · Post by **Masterofdarkness** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:07 am

It says the unit is subject to the rules for frenzy, with all its restrictions, however if it said the unit has frenzy then it would be plausible to argue that they have it.

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:28 pm

Consider this situation. You have a BSB with the banner. At some point the corsairs lost a round of combat but passed their LD to hold. On the enemies turn they fight again and defeat the enemy. On their next turn the BSB leaves the unit and later rejoins the unit. Do the Corsairs gain Frenzy?

Or consider this, in 6th ed the cauldron allowed witches to regain lost frenzy. When they lost a round of combat they would regain the lost frenzy within 24" of COB.

If the corsairs do regain frenzy then what happens when they are defeated by a fear causing enemy? Do they regain the frenzy before they succumb to outnumber + fear?

Personally I say they lose the frenzy and then regain it after the close combat in which they lost it. That is how I ran it with 6th with witches under the effects of Red Fury from the COB.

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:41 pm

Viper wrote:Consider this situation. You have a BSB with the banner. At some point the corsairs lost a round of combat but passed their LD to hold. On the enemies turn they fight again and defeat the enemy. On their next turn the BSB leaves the unit and later rejoins the unit. Do the Corsairs gain Frenzy?

Or consider this, in 6th ed the cauldron allowed witches to regain lost frenzy. When they lost a round of combat they would regain the lost frenzy within 24" of COB.

If the corsairs do regain frenzy then what happens when they are defeated by a fear causing enemy? Do they regain the frenzy before they succumb to outnumber + fear?

Personally I say they lose the frenzy and then regain it after the close combat in which they lost it. That is how I ran it with 6th with witches under the effects of Red Fury from the COB.

Red Fury said they never lost it while in the zone and regained it if they came under the zone, which would happen as soon as they enter within 24", so I don't think the situation you described could ever actually happen in 6th.

BSB can't take the banner as it's explicitly corsair only.