What it says on the tin. Given that Wood Elves, Ogres, Dwarves, and Bretonia are the last few armies to get an update, what changes for the better do you expect from them.
Of course, as there are a few notable armies that have been updated prior to 8th, if you want any changes there go ahead.
Note: These are just things you think might happen, or hope might happen, not necessarily written in stone.
Ogres:
*Bulls will be slightly cheaper as they are currently have the same states and point cost as a chaos ogre, just without the heavy armor (they may be rarer in other armies, but they are a common sight amongst these thugs).
*Gut magic may stay the same, though considering the extra potency you make some spells have in 8th edition, there is no reason a butcher can't add in the special sauce. I suspect they will also keep their misfire chart.
*Leadbelchers will be allowed to have an increase unit size, at least enough for two full ranks.
I saw a Rhynox chariot in the big red book, so I suspect that will be a new unit. I also suspect we'll have Rhynox riders as monstrous cavalry.
*I suspect A few of the named characters that do not have any rules will be added as official characters, and a few more will be created as well. We may even see named unit champions.
*Gnoblars might get a new unit, why not?
*As the average number of units seems to be somewhere between 10 and 14, they will be getting as many new units that would fill that roll.
What else do you guys think?
When Armies Finally go 8th edition.
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When Armies Finally go 8th edition.
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Ichiyo1821
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New Lance rules. Maybe +1/2 initiative on the charge for knights...
Devastating charge virtue.
Devastating charge on Lance formations to compensate for Initiative 3.
Strike first on the charge.
Really Brets need simple changes like that and they'll be ok already. Anything to help them deal a little more punch on the charge and you're done with the Brets book.
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New units. Half of the WE units were barrely used in 7th edition much more in 8th.
With the new LOS and hit on BS shooting make WE BS5 or let them ignore to hit penalties.
Ranked up Dryads again?
Either they make a rule or that lets WE count core units as "banners" for the Blood and Glory Scenario or simply let them have a unit or units that can actually carry one.
Improve their fast cav to stand above regular fast cav.
I dunno what direction Gw needs to do for WE to still retain their flavor while making them competitive. They took a hit in all the ares they excel. Skirmishers, fast cav, hit and run, march blocking, bs shooting with TLOS etc etc all went against them.
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Reduce Dwarven unit costs.
New runes to replace unusable runes like US runes.
Give them a Golem.
Not much to fix in the Dwarven book imo. They are actually fine if not for their model count. A single Thunderer costs more than a Repeater Crossbowmen with Shield.
Devastating charge virtue.
Devastating charge on Lance formations to compensate for Initiative 3.
Strike first on the charge.
Really Brets need simple changes like that and they'll be ok already. Anything to help them deal a little more punch on the charge and you're done with the Brets book.
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New units. Half of the WE units were barrely used in 7th edition much more in 8th.
With the new LOS and hit on BS shooting make WE BS5 or let them ignore to hit penalties.
Ranked up Dryads again?
Either they make a rule or that lets WE count core units as "banners" for the Blood and Glory Scenario or simply let them have a unit or units that can actually carry one.
Improve their fast cav to stand above regular fast cav.
I dunno what direction Gw needs to do for WE to still retain their flavor while making them competitive. They took a hit in all the ares they excel. Skirmishers, fast cav, hit and run, march blocking, bs shooting with TLOS etc etc all went against them.
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Reduce Dwarven unit costs.
New runes to replace unusable runes like US runes.
Give them a Golem.
Not much to fix in the Dwarven book imo. They are actually fine if not for their model count. A single Thunderer costs more than a Repeater Crossbowmen with Shield.
8th Edition
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
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Sulla
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Hopefully in the dwarf book, all artillery will move to rare, and the strength rune will be capped at +1 or Master runed.
Hopefully more useful runes for standards to match the utility of the flaming rune or armour piercing rune.
Either no great weapons on basic warriors, or the price increases for them a fair bit; currently, they are a no brainer.
The elite infantry needs more relevance or something to redefine their roles.
Reduction in the power of runelords/smiths and probably an increase in usefulness of anvil.
Basically, I'd like to see the war machine shooting less powerful and the combat more powerful without relying on the crutch of armywide great weapons.
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Wood elves need a decent ranked unit of cheap infantry and a trimming of their bloated special rules section. Other than that, it would be nice to see chariots return and t4 heroes (same appkies to all elves, really... t3 worked in 6th/7th but it's dreadful in 8th). If they could guarantee some woods on the field each time to help their skirmishers work better, they'd be ok.
Hopefully more useful runes for standards to match the utility of the flaming rune or armour piercing rune.
Either no great weapons on basic warriors, or the price increases for them a fair bit; currently, they are a no brainer.
The elite infantry needs more relevance or something to redefine their roles.
Reduction in the power of runelords/smiths and probably an increase in usefulness of anvil.
Basically, I'd like to see the war machine shooting less powerful and the combat more powerful without relying on the crutch of armywide great weapons.
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Wood elves need a decent ranked unit of cheap infantry and a trimming of their bloated special rules section. Other than that, it would be nice to see chariots return and t4 heroes (same appkies to all elves, really... t3 worked in 6th/7th but it's dreadful in 8th). If they could guarantee some woods on the field each time to help their skirmishers work better, they'd be ok.
I suspect Bretonians may get another archer unit, something like the ranger or huntsman that would scout and skirmish.
We could probably see a infantry knight unit (A whole unit taking that one vow that has them forgo horsemanship).
Skayers might get variants such as the Skaven slayer and such, with different abilities such as with blood line traits or marks of chaos
We could probably see a infantry knight unit (A whole unit taking that one vow that has them forgo horsemanship).
Skayers might get variants such as the Skaven slayer and such, with different abilities such as with blood line traits or marks of chaos
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Squanto315
- Trainee Warrior
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Blackfrost
- Shade
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For the Asrai, I'd say;
--Make Eternal Guard true core, drop their cost about 2-3 points and make them stubborn with or without a noble/HB in the unit.
--Dryads will be ranked...my crystal ball tells me so
--make all the kindreds viable (if they are kept at all, which is rather doubtful given the simplicity of the last 2 army books)
--reduced cost for core scouts. give them the glade guard longbow rule
Bretts;
--I agree with saintofm, Infantry knights would be different and they would make a good centerpiece unit.
--More heroic killing blow options
--I expect battle pilgrims to become a troublesome unit, if only for tarpitting
Ichiyo1821 pretty much nailed it with his suggestions
--Make Eternal Guard true core, drop their cost about 2-3 points and make them stubborn with or without a noble/HB in the unit.
--Dryads will be ranked...my crystal ball tells me so
--make all the kindreds viable (if they are kept at all, which is rather doubtful given the simplicity of the last 2 army books)
--reduced cost for core scouts. give them the glade guard longbow rule
Bretts;
--I agree with saintofm, Infantry knights would be different and they would make a good centerpiece unit.
--More heroic killing blow options
--I expect battle pilgrims to become a troublesome unit, if only for tarpitting
Ichiyo1821 pretty much nailed it with his suggestions
I want to see dwarves get granadires.
At the top of my head, I can think of this this for the rules:
Strength 4/5 thrown weapon, Artilary die for the number of hits. If a misfire is rolled role a D6 for each misfire rilled.
1-3: Premature Explotion: The unit Takes D6 Strength 4/5 hits.
4-6: Dud: Treat as a normal thrown weapon at strength
At the top of my head, I can think of this this for the rules:
Strength 4/5 thrown weapon, Artilary die for the number of hits. If a misfire is rolled role a D6 for each misfire rilled.
1-3: Premature Explotion: The unit Takes D6 Strength 4/5 hits.
4-6: Dud: Treat as a normal thrown weapon at strength
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
saintofm wrote:I want to see dwarves get granadires.
At the top of my head, I can think of this this for the rules:
Strength 4/5 thrown weapon, Artilary die for the number of hits. If a misfire is rolled role a D6 for each misfire rilled.
1-3: Premature Explotion: The unit Takes D6 Strength 4/5 hits.
4-6: Dud: Treat as a normal thrown weapon at strength
Not grenades! Thats too futuristic
Throwing hot pots that would be accepteble
Also, Grenades have been around for centuries. They resembled cartoon bombs and worked in a similar manner (light a fuse, throw it, and duck and cover).
And for crying out loud, Dwarves have a steam punk helicopter. I'm not asking for them to get a gundam, just a small handheld explosive!
And for crying out loud, Dwarves have a steam punk helicopter. I'm not asking for them to get a gundam, just a small handheld explosive!
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
sulla wrote:Hopefully in the dwarf book, all artillery will move to rare, and the strength rune will be capped at +1 or Master runed.
Hopefully more useful runes for standards to match the utility of the flaming rune or armour piercing rune.
Either no great weapons on basic warriors, or the price increases for them a fair bit; currently, they are a no brainer.
The elite infantry needs more relevance or something to redefine their roles.
Reduction in the power of runelords/smiths and probably an increase in usefulness of anvil.
Basically, I'd like to see the war machine shooting less powerful and the combat more powerful without relying on the crutch of armywide great weapons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Wood elves need a decent ranked unit of cheap infantry and a trimming of their bloated special rules section. Other than that, it would be nice to see chariots return and t4 heroes (same appkies to all elves, really... t3 worked in 6th/7th but it's dreadful in 8th). If they could guarantee some woods on the field each time to help their skirmishers work better, they'd be ok.
There are four phases to a warhammer turn: Movement, shooting, magic, and combat.
With M3, dwarves already struggle more than any other faction in maneuvering. Dwarves have no cavalry and their only fast unit still has partial hits on 4+, costs more than a full unit of five cold one knights, and has almost no close combat attack power.
You wish to reduce the availability of dwarven artillery by moving it all to rare, which leaves us almost nothing useful in our special category. It's one of the two phases dwarves can truly participate in. An S5 small template is better than almost any other artillery piece, though I believe both WoC and Empire get large template weapons. However, an S5 template doesn't compare to the damage a purple sun or pit of shades can do.
The DE core shooters are far better than those available to the dwarves, should they be moved to special choices as well?
Magic phase: Whatever the dwarves gain in the shooting phase, we lose here. The ability to buff your own units, hex enemy units, and annihilate whole units with "I win" spells, particually for the Dark Elves since they can cast as many dice at it as they want is something dwarves just don't have. We do have good magic defense, but have nothing to stop an IF spell. Plus, many spells such as Pit of Shades can be placed so as to take out 2-3 war machines with one casting.
Combat: You complain about our great weapons. quite frankly they are the only things that work for dwarves. We don't get options for spears, halberds, or flails. We get Hw/shield or GW. The hw/shield option is no better, possibly even worse, than the 7 point spear/shield warrior option DE have. Without GWs, dwarf warriors wouldn't be able to compete. Compare a GW warrior to a Chaos Warrior with a halberd. We pay 10 points for one WS4, S5, ASL attack. They get TWO WS5, S5, I5 attacks for 16 points. Or they can take a GW maurader with WS4, S5, ASL (exact same as us) for 6 points. Further, we have no banners to give us ASF or frenzy, nor do we have magic to buff our units further. They do.
As for DE, they can take a 10 point corsair and get two WS4, S3, I5 with rerolls to hit in the first round of combat. Our hits will do more damage, but we will get hit first before we can strike back, and between the extra attacks and rerolls far more of the corsairs will hit. The option to take a repeater handbow is just icing for the corsairs. Additionally, they can take a 25 point banner for more attacks and can be buffed further through magic or the cauldron.
Each army excels at certain things. You have your advantages, we have ours. If our hard hitting core units were taken away, then we have overpriced units that are weaker than anything fielded against us. If our shooting is taken away, we have no way to harm enemies before they reach us.
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On topic:
For dwarves, here are the changes I expect to see.
It has been rumored that our units will get a 2 point decrease across the board. The reasoning behind it was that we cannot buff our units like other races can. I'm not sure whether we'll see it in all units, but I certainly expect to see it in a few, namely thunderers and ironbreakers.
We expect to get some form of monster, probably a runic golem, though a zepplin is a possibility (would be too expensive to field, IMO). This is likely because GW has been giving all armies centerpiece monsters.
We may get a form of cavalry. Some of us don't like it, some do. It would be nice to get something we can maneuver.
We expect to have the gyro fixed with a lower point value (not sure what it would be) and no partial hits. We also expect to have the flame cannon reworked to make it more useful again or more affordable. There is hope for some sort of changes to slayers and perhaps miners (maybe making them core). There is a possibility that Ironbreakers might get the rune of stone as an option for 2 points or so. Apparently they had this in old editions and it would make them a true anvil and a viable choice.
We expect to have the runic system overhauled but no one is sure how. Some think we will lose almost all of our runes, except for 8 or so. That would cripple dwarves and ruin their flavor but is possible due to GW's removal of all but 8 magic items from the other armies released so far. Some runes that are useless, such as the US ones will surely be removed. If we lose most of our runes, it is likely that we would finally gain access to the common item magic lists. Most of us prefer to keep our runes, though. personally, I like the customizability of things due to runes.
There is some discussion of the anvil becoming a rare unit, like a casket of souls, rather than a runelord upgrade.
Some people have also suggested that certain runes used by named characters will no longer be available for purchase.
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Sulla
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Ryric wrote:sulla wrote:Hopefully in the dwarf book, all artillery will move to rare, and the strength rune will be capped at +1 or Master runed.
Hopefully more useful runes for standards to match the utility of the flaming rune or armour piercing rune.
Either no great weapons on basic warriors, or the price increases for them a fair bit; currently, they are a no brainer.
The elite infantry needs more relevance or something to redefine their roles.
Reduction in the power of runelords/smiths and probably an increase in usefulness of anvil.
Basically, I'd like to see the war machine shooting less powerful and the combat more powerful without relying on the crutch of armywide great weapons.
.
There are four phases to a warhammer turn: Movement, shooting, magic, and combat.
With M3, dwarves already struggle more than any other faction in maneuvering. Dwarves have no cavalry and their only fast unit still has partial hits on 4+, costs more than a full unit of five cold one knights, and has almost no close combat attack power.
Dwarves have unparalled access to ranked tunnellers or scouts with great weapons. Dwarven units charge, on average, 10". That's good enough in 8th edition.
You wish to reduce the availability of dwarven artillery by moving it all to rare, which leaves us almost nothing useful in our special category. It's one of the two phases dwarves can truly participate in. An S5 small template is better than almost any other artillery piece, though I believe both WoC and Empire get large template weapons. However, an S5 template doesn't compare to the damage a purple sun or pit of shades can do.
Actually it does do damage comparable to a purple sun. 2+ to wound 19 20mm models on a hit is pretty good. Besides, you can't compare future books to currently broken stuff. Hellcannons, trebuchet, even mortars are too good for their price. Purple sun is far too good right now. It should allow MR at the very least, and possibly only do a single wound too, at least on the smaller casting. The simple fact is cannons and boosted strength stone throwers are so good in this edition that they have almost completely seen off ridden monsters in the tourney scene. You don't need access to 3 of them in a standard sized battle.
As for special infantry, I already mentioned I mentioned giving them more relevance or something to redefine their roles. I don't see a lot of any special other than hammerers these days; plainly high strength is valuable in 8th edition with extra ranks attacking. GW need to put more effort into making units without boosted strength useful on the tabletop other than just for steadfast. Nowhere is this more evident than Dwarves where only boosted strength units see the field, often.
The DE core shooters are far better than those available to the dwarves, should they be moved to special choices as well?
?I don't think I mentioned your core shooters. I think they're fine as is. Command needs a drop in price, but otherwise, they seem reasonable to me.
Magic phase: Whatever the dwarves gain in the shooting phase, we lose here. The ability to buff your own units, hex enemy units, and annihilate whole units with "I win" spells, particually for the Dark Elves since they can cast as many dice at it as they want is something dwarves just don't have. We do have good magic defense, but have nothing to stop an IF spell. Plus, many spells such as Pit of Shades can be placed so as to take out 2-3 war machines with one casting.
So give Dwarven units better runes to buff/hex units; especialy in the runic standards, which are dull to the extreme. Give runelords a reason to exist other than the dice they provide. If they could dispel like mages and also make their unit stubborn, or some other buff... If the anvil had hexes/augments more in line with the 8th edition spell, this would also make them more competitive in this area.
Combat: You complain about our great weapons. quite frankly they are the only things that work for dwarves. We don't get options for spears, halberds, or flails. We get Hw/shield or GW. The hw/shield option is no better, possibly even worse, than the 7 point spear/shield warrior option DE have. Without GWs, dwarf warriors wouldn't be able to compete. Compare a GW warrior to a Chaos Warrior with a halberd. We pay 10 points for one WS4, S5, ASL attack. They get TWO WS5, S5, I5 attacks for 16 points. Or they can take a GW maurader with WS4, S5, ASL (exact same as us) for 6 points. Further, we have no banners to give us ASF or frenzy, nor do we have magic to buff our units further. They do.
It's not about whether they match up vs chaos warriors. It's about whether they match up vs dwarven warriors with hand weapons and shields... or whether those hw&shield guys match up vs the core shooters. Currently,there is no reason to take a dwarf without a great weapon or a missile weapon, or both. Dwarven tank units should be a staple of the list. The current book doesn't do that justice.
As for DE, they can take a 10 point corsair and get two WS4, S3, I5 with rerolls to hit in the first round of combat. Our hits will do more damage, but we will get hit first before we can strike back, and between the extra attacks and rerolls far more of the corsairs will hit. The option to take a repeater handbow is just icing for the corsairs. Additionally, they can take a 25 point banner for more attacks and can be buffed further through magic or the cauldron.
Each army excels at certain things. You have your advantages, we have ours. If our hard hitting core units were taken away, then we have overpriced units that are weaker than anything fielded against us. If our shooting is taken away, we have no way to harm enemies before they reach us.
Don't focus on Dwarves vs DE. I'm not advocating a weaker dwarven list. I'm advocating a list that makes Dwarves in line with 8th edition and not reliant on the very small group of things that gained an advantage in this edition; i.e. armywide great weapons, dispel dice spam and strength rune'd up grudge throwers. When I make suggestions, it is not with the most powerful opponent in that class in mind, but the average benchmark set by the newer books, like beasts, O&G and TK. This is where GW are aiming.
(Your quote in Italics)
Anyone could write a book to take advantage of the current rules. Some might say the 7th edition DE book did just that, with access to ASF, hatred, assassins in every unit, cheap, flying redirecters. You could do the same with dwarves for 8th, with cheap horde great weapons, high strength templates and dispel dice spam. That doesn't take skill. Skill is making a balanced army that looks like dwarves should look on the field in GW background, is fun to play and play against and makes every unit choice a viable option. The last 2 books are pretty close to this. I don't think anyone would accuse the current book of being like this.
I am sure when they update the army book, there will be some changes. Most of us hope for more flavor with our elites, especially better Ironbreakers (or at least cheap enough to be a viable choice). Don't expect to see dwarf artillery nerfed significantly, if anything, you should probably expect to see it get worse with a viable flame cannon and a redone gyrocopter.
The one thing you might actually see is a reduction in the effectiveness of our GTs. However, I am not sure it is as bad as you present. Yes, against T3 it has similar effects to a Purple Sun that can't be dispelled, yet we get no magic. On the other hand, other races get access to a Purple Sun that uses the LARGE template, so is worse than our GT. You said that was broken also though. How about Pit of Shades? You can be just as effective as a GT, with the option of large template again. Or, how about a flame cage or a final transmutation? They may be less effective in killing individual models, but when you consider that most armies in 8th use units of 40+, you can see very similar effects from those spells, potentially even worse.
Btw, if I usually reference only dwarves and dark elves, it is because those are the two armies I field. Also I don't have many of the other army books for comparison.
You say you think our core shooters are just fine. This comment leads me to believe you are not a dwarf player. Simple comparison here (and I know you don't like them, but evidence speaks). Our 11 point core shooter has 6" more range than yours. It is S4, so will wound better, but is the same against AS. Yours has a higher BS and can double fire with the same chances to hit as our normal shots. Dwarf players would love a unit like that, and we can't even use Guiding Eye, Withering, or Enchanted Blades to make them more effective.
Here is my take on it - is there items about the dwarves that need changing? Yes, though I hesitate to include our WM runes, that may be just bias on my part. Are there things about the dark elves that need changing? Yes, again, and Sac dagger, unlimited PD casting, but most of all the Pendant come to mind. There is a thread over here that says dwarves are too strong (this one) and one over there that complains about the DE magic items. In both cases, I say its part of the army flavor. If it gets revised soon, then there will simply be other things people will complain about. If the pendant gets seriously nerfed, then the dagger will be the thing people love to hate. If our GT gets weakened and dwarf players use something else, then we'll hear about how bad the Organ Guns are. If the other elites are improved, we won't hear about how good hammerers are, instead we'll hear about how Ironbreakers are too tough or how terrible it is that Longbeards are core, etc.
So, for now, play it as it lays, and when it changes, do the same.
The one thing you might actually see is a reduction in the effectiveness of our GTs. However, I am not sure it is as bad as you present. Yes, against T3 it has similar effects to a Purple Sun that can't be dispelled, yet we get no magic. On the other hand, other races get access to a Purple Sun that uses the LARGE template, so is worse than our GT. You said that was broken also though. How about Pit of Shades? You can be just as effective as a GT, with the option of large template again. Or, how about a flame cage or a final transmutation? They may be less effective in killing individual models, but when you consider that most armies in 8th use units of 40+, you can see very similar effects from those spells, potentially even worse.
Btw, if I usually reference only dwarves and dark elves, it is because those are the two armies I field. Also I don't have many of the other army books for comparison.
You say you think our core shooters are just fine. This comment leads me to believe you are not a dwarf player. Simple comparison here (and I know you don't like them, but evidence speaks). Our 11 point core shooter has 6" more range than yours. It is S4, so will wound better, but is the same against AS. Yours has a higher BS and can double fire with the same chances to hit as our normal shots. Dwarf players would love a unit like that, and we can't even use Guiding Eye, Withering, or Enchanted Blades to make them more effective.
Here is my take on it - is there items about the dwarves that need changing? Yes, though I hesitate to include our WM runes, that may be just bias on my part. Are there things about the dark elves that need changing? Yes, again, and Sac dagger, unlimited PD casting, but most of all the Pendant come to mind. There is a thread over here that says dwarves are too strong (this one) and one over there that complains about the DE magic items. In both cases, I say its part of the army flavor. If it gets revised soon, then there will simply be other things people will complain about. If the pendant gets seriously nerfed, then the dagger will be the thing people love to hate. If our GT gets weakened and dwarf players use something else, then we'll hear about how bad the Organ Guns are. If the other elites are improved, we won't hear about how good hammerers are, instead we'll hear about how Ironbreakers are too tough or how terrible it is that Longbeards are core, etc.
So, for now, play it as it lays, and when it changes, do the same.
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Sulla
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The problem with looking at any (ballistic skill) shooting unit in isolation is that you will always be dissapointed with it's damage output. A 20 man unit of pretty much anything will only net you 3 or 4 kills often. This isn't a huge problem compared a standard rulebook stonethrower; about 19 hits gives 9-ish wounds, one third saved by armour gives 6 kils. It only hits one in 3 shots so they are really well balanced vs each other vs rank and file. The stone thrower only gets a lot better vs single model targets, where the direct hit is fantastic.
But the problem is you rarely see basic stone throwers in warhammer these days. Either an army book has +strength stone throwers, in which case the player takes the maximum number he can choose, or they have no extra strength in which case, the player only takes as many as he needs for monster hunting. With no maximum unit cap, basic shooting has taken a big hit in the power stakes across all armies in warhammer.
@ Ryric, it's not a question of Dwarves being too powerful to me. Their power level is just fine in this edition. It's that the book is hopelessly out of step with 8th edition and extremely poorly balanced internally for this edition.
I was restricting my post to only that army. Doesn't mean I don't think other armies have broken stuff. Take DE for example; Hydra are at least 30-odd points underpriced, and the amount of carnage an unwounded hydra can do to a unit of small based infantry with it's breath weapon is pretty obscene. The sacrificial dagger in 8th edition should be at least 60pts as it lets DE violate the 12pd barrier and the pendant of khaleth probably shouldn't be allowed on mounted characters, so you restrict the possible comboes by making the player choose between armour and other items. Even the mindrazor spell should probably only give a single attack at your Ld, rather than all your attacks, to stop DE building armies so heavily reliant on mindrazor/multiattack spam. All 6th/7th edition armies have some balance issues, but dwarves have some of the worst. The gap between the 'haves' and the 'have not's' in the list is huge. They are becoming like DE back in 6th, where the potential competitive lists were so few, and playstyles were limied that they ended up playing their own game because they couldn't compete at the stuff the other guys were doing on the battlefield.
But the problem is you rarely see basic stone throwers in warhammer these days. Either an army book has +strength stone throwers, in which case the player takes the maximum number he can choose, or they have no extra strength in which case, the player only takes as many as he needs for monster hunting. With no maximum unit cap, basic shooting has taken a big hit in the power stakes across all armies in warhammer.
@ Ryric, it's not a question of Dwarves being too powerful to me. Their power level is just fine in this edition. It's that the book is hopelessly out of step with 8th edition and extremely poorly balanced internally for this edition.
I was restricting my post to only that army. Doesn't mean I don't think other armies have broken stuff. Take DE for example; Hydra are at least 30-odd points underpriced, and the amount of carnage an unwounded hydra can do to a unit of small based infantry with it's breath weapon is pretty obscene. The sacrificial dagger in 8th edition should be at least 60pts as it lets DE violate the 12pd barrier and the pendant of khaleth probably shouldn't be allowed on mounted characters, so you restrict the possible comboes by making the player choose between armour and other items. Even the mindrazor spell should probably only give a single attack at your Ld, rather than all your attacks, to stop DE building armies so heavily reliant on mindrazor/multiattack spam. All 6th/7th edition armies have some balance issues, but dwarves have some of the worst. The gap between the 'haves' and the 'have not's' in the list is huge. They are becoming like DE back in 6th, where the potential competitive lists were so few, and playstyles were limied that they ended up playing their own game because they couldn't compete at the stuff the other guys were doing on the battlefield.