DE too powerful?

[Lord_carnage]

Hi all,

I played against O&G yesterday and found out that the new DE are very powerfull. maybe even to powerfull. I used the MSU strategy with 2 big blocks of inf and a lv 4 mage with life magic. The WE with ASF combined with the reroll from a higher I and poison AND reroll 1's to wound chewed ORCS to pieces. My EX did more or less the same killing everyting with the rerolls and S6.

I think that ASF is very nice but the reroll for missed to hit is to much! To be honest, i hated the HE for it and now i kind of hate the DE for the same cheese (but boy, what a carnage)

How does everyone feel about this

[Dark Zen]

If I'm not mistaken, your Executioners shouldn't have been re-rolling to hit. The ASL from their Great Weapons cancels out the Elves innate ASF, meaning they strike at initiative as normal, and thus without re-rolls.

[Kaleth eissplitter]

Hm I am quite undecided about this question. Fluffwise it seems fitting (elves are much more agile then humans, dwarfs and orcs). And I bet that the day we see a new Woodelves-Book - they'll will have ASF too.

I think too, that this whole armywide ASF + rerolls thing is overpowered. And I felt the same way when the 7th ed. book came out and I learned about the armywide hatred rule. On the other hand: Some units have increased in point-costs and have been nerfed.

The thing is, that one has to learn to adapt to the new rules. When I was playing against high elves with the 7th ed. army book... I was always scared by ASF and retools, but on the other hand: Most elven units are pretty fragile, so you shoot them! So if I were the guy with the Orcs: I'd change the composition of my army.

I guess that's the point for GW to sell more stuff.

[Haagrum]

Hi all,

I played against O&G yesterday and found out that the new DE are very powerfull. maybe even to powerfull. I used the MSU strategy with 2 big blocks of inf and a lv 4 mage with life magic. The WE with ASF combined with the reroll from a higher I and poison AND reroll 1's to wound chewed ORCS to pieces. My EX did more or less the same killing everyting with the rerolls and S6.

I think that ASF is very nice but the reroll for missed to hit is to much! To be honest, i hated the HE for it and now i kind of hate the DE for the same cheese (but boy, what a carnage)

How does everyone feel about this

Everything always seems nastier the first time you play against it. Until you learn how to counter it, that is. Reading some of the threads here, you could be forgiven for thinking we got beaten with the nerf stick until Matt Ward's arms got sore.

The exact same strategy might very easily have been torn to shreds by a Warriors of Chaos or Daemons army. An army firing templates would splatter two big blocks of T3 no save/5+ save Elves, leaving it with nothing with which to actually deliver the killing blows. The Shadow signature spell can strip Dark Elves of their rerolls quickly. Template weapons murder Dark Elves. If the Orcs & Goblins player baited your Witches out of position and flank-charged with unit of Boarboyz, or ground down the Executioners with 50 Goblins, or neutralised your chaff and set the Fanatics loose, or had an Arachnarok Spider using a Flinger to give you ASL, or put a few rocks in the right spots with a Rock Lobba, or... any number of other things that they might have done, the result could be different.

So, in short - no, we aren't overpowered. We are very good, but at the end of the day, virtually everything in our army bruises in a stiff breeze and dies in droves against missile fire. Once the lesser races figure that out, things will balance out a little, and we will have to rely on our own skill rather than their ignorance.

[Drek]

If I'm not mistaken, your Executioners shouldn't have been re-rolling to hit. The ASL from their Great Weapons cancels out the Elves innate ASF, meaning they strike at initiative as normal, and thus without re-rolls.

Why do you assume he was rerolling hits? Execs get rerolls on 1's to wound, I think he was referring to that. With KB, that wound reroll is nasty.

[Calisson]

Previous army book was highly overpowered too, DE very quickly hit the top 3... until a new rulebook arrived and introduced steadfast.
Our army book, and HE AB, have been designed with 9th edition in mind.
Who can tell if ASF will mean much? How it will work with ASL? If GW will be still ASL?

Also, Lord_carnage, your aggressive MSU was well adapted to your opponent. The opponent may change, and the approach may fail.

[Omnichron]

To be honest, I think that DE is less powerful now than with the previous book, especially against O&G. The reroll 1's is the big new thing (As ASF and hatred had the same effect for the first round), but we had more resilience due to more and tougher units in our old book.

I think the current book is good and quite balanced as is, and I think running 10-20 battles against the same O&G player could give a more reflected view of the matchup as well as strengths and weaknesses to the lists and skills between player than just one battle.

It's like when I ran into skaven the first times... I met the top players in my country and got utterly smashed several times before I learned what was good and bad about them. I improved and got more even matches against the same players, and when I met less skilled players, I suddenly won a lot. The first battles it was easy to conclude that Skaven was too powerful, but in reality it was just my list having a disadvantage and my own skills that wasn't good enough for the task.

[Falstaff]

Oh, I have so waited for this discussion!

DE haven't been among the best 5 armies since 8th+demons+WoC have been published and I believe rournament results support that. we were still strong but not at the top. I have always hated it if people got frustrated with the hydra, stating it's OP. well guess what, other armies have strong stuff, too!!

I think that we are still strong with the new book, but less so than before and certainly less than in 7th!

At the top are and will be at least till 9th arrives: Demons, WoC, Vamps and Ogres.
Which does not mean that we do not stand a chance of beating those armies!!

[Cold73]

DE are certainly powerfull, but odlly enough i think that Eternal Hatred was more powerfull then ASF.
Why..well... ASF can be negated... lowering initiative...giving ASF to your own units....or when playing Daemons of Slaanesh..give ASL to the units that have ASF.
but at this points we are far less vulnerable in the 2nd round of combat..since with ASF we often still get rerolls.

When playing against O&G I always hope my opponent uses lots of Orcs...and big heavy hitters...
Simply because on average DE often having killing ratio of 4:1.
and with orcs...that is often enough to win...Oddly enough my elfs do worse against Goblins...
Yes...i kill dozens every turn...but there are plenty more where they come from.

[Rork]

I find such a rule lazy designing since it requires little finesse in its execution - You're striking first except on certain rare occasions and getting rerolls against most enemies that aren't characters. It's boring to play against.

I see what they're aiming for, but then why not just boost their I stat? I don't think Elves need a super-duper rule to convey their speed. ASF is just a tacky neon arrow pointing out that they're fast.

[Lord_carnage]

I think if you have ASF it should be without the reroll. That would be fine for me

[Askador]

Well if i compare the last Book and this book. Yeah we got some new and nice Toys. Warloks are one of them.

But all in all i think this book is not stronger then the last one. We lost alot Defensive stuff. The Cauldron is a expensive shadow of the last one. The hydra is very soft now. The Chain is gone. Not that some stuff didnt deserve it. But its gone.
Almost everything is mor expensive now. Wich lowers the number of your Heads in the Army.

I dont want to cry. I think its still a Competive army and its alot fun to play. But stonger or "Too strong" ? I dont think so.

[marcopollo]

I think there are few armies that rely as heavily on absolute killing power as DE. The Druchii are too expensive to be fielded in any meaningful horde/bus format. And so will usually be outnumbered and fighting against steadfast units.

This means finding ways of whittling down opponent numbers and/or ld bombing them. But static CR is not going to win the day for us anymore (if it ever did anyways).

I think Callison is right on the money about MSU tactics here. We really can't afford to have too many "pasengers" in this army.

There is also a mathematical/statistical approach to this style. Our probabilites are less certain than armies with lots of SC resolution. So we are more susceptible to statistical anomalies. Fluffing kills makes a big difference. But we also have the chance of doing huge amounts of damage too. This is a fear that can be exploited in your opponents psychology.

What if those Exe kill 6 of my knights? Just might happen. What if they kill none? ... just might happen.

We do have good ld values too. So that helps mitigate those fluffs that can occur.

I love this game.

[Colonel]

Orcs can be very powerful in the shooting and magic phase, but I think they were written poorly as orc players really want to bash 'eads like warriors. If deployed on a refused flank they can castle as well as dwarfs and are more well rounded.

2 doom divers should clear out our dark riders pretty quick, 2 rock lobbers smash up to 22 elves each at once in a block, fast cav can keep you engaged, then a unit of 8 trolls can be presented for you to charge.. with the trap of fanatics slung through them so you take 6d6 S5 hits before hitting combat. A good foot of gork can decimate anything in the DE army, warmachines, new chariots, blocks. Oh.. and how do your elfs like pump wagons!

If anything the nerf of the hydra has given O&G a better fighting chance, as before two of them could sometimes take on a whole orc army with a few lucky regen rolls.

[HERO]

lol, this thread

Beat one player in one matchup with one list. Book must be OP for sure.

[direweasel]

lol, this thread

Beat one player in one matchup with one list. Book must be OP for sure.

+1. Was about to say the same thing.

This book is definitely more powerful than the rules I played last...12 years ago. I think the change to the basic rulebook is a large part of that, but I also think the actual army list is more competitive too.

But in no way do I think it is too powerful. Win about 20 more games about each other army list, then come back to us about how unstoppable it is.

[HERO]

And this book is nowhere close as powerful as the 7th book. It's about onpar with High Elves, but will not dethrone the top3 from the game.

In fact, HE are more balanced to take on the opposition in general. DE will be better vs. guys like Ogres due to sheer killiness, but will suffer more vs. WoC. Against Daemons, I think it's anyone's game depending on what kind of lists are being thrown around. Unlike HE, DE tend to either win big, or lose big.

Thank goodness this book is out, it'll take the next year or two just to erase the stigma that is 7th Ed. Dark Elves from the tournament scene.

[General Kael]

lol, this thread

Beat one player in one matchup with one list. Book must be OP for sure.

What's wrong with this thread?

The guy had a game and found the new book to be powerful in that match up. Which made him pose a question "are we OP?" And I'm sure there are lots of people posing that same question.

I personally think that we got a pretty well rounded book. Very hard hitting but not vey resilient, and expensive troops.

Any way that's my 2 cents, I hope I contributed some thing to this thread.

[HERO]

Only inexperienced or lesser players overreact like that. Its been two weeks, come on man.

[Datalink7]

And this book is nowhere close as powerful as the 7th book. It's about onpar with High Elves, but will not dethrone the top3 from the game.

In fact, HE are more balanced to take on the opposition in general. DE will be better vs. guys like Ogres due to sheer killiness, but will suffer more vs. WoC. Against Daemons, I think it's anyone's game depending on what kind of lists are being thrown around. Unlike HE, DE tend to either win big, or lose big.

Thank goodness this book is out, it'll take the next year or two just to erase the stigma that is 7th Ed. Dark Elves from the tournament scene.

In the hands of an experienced player, I place High Elves in the top 3 (probably right at 3).

I think our book is quite powerful, though I have yet to play a game with it yet (first opportunity will be a week from this Saturday because I'm already committed to run Vamps this Saturday at a tournament). I don't think it is OP, but I think it is probably right at the top.

[Darthken]

yeah its powerful, but against certain armies it just rocks. Had my first game with them against my mates O&G, he usually runs ogres.
1st turn i hit a night goblin horde of 100 models with Bladewind. Killed 67 of them. Even i thought that was a bit rude

and my mate still hasn't stopped complaining about it

[HERO]

And this book is nowhere close as powerful as the 7th book. It's about onpar with High Elves, but will not dethrone the top3 from the game.

In fact, HE are more balanced to take on the opposition in general. DE will be better vs. guys like Ogres due to sheer killiness, but will suffer more vs. WoC. Against Daemons, I think it's anyone's game depending on what kind of lists are being thrown around. Unlike HE, DE tend to either win big, or lose big.

Thank goodness this book is out, it'll take the next year or two just to erase the stigma that is 7th Ed. Dark Elves from the tournament scene.

In the hands of an experienced player, I place High Elves in the top 3 (probably right at 3).

I think our book is quite powerful, though I have yet to play a game with it yet (first opportunity will be a week from this Saturday because I'm already committed to run Vamps this Saturday at a tournament). I don't think it is OP, but I think it is probably right at the top.

Doesn't matter where you place it, tournament results from this year has proven otherwise.

What I have seen over the last year at tournaments has been this: (taking into account most current books and the US Central to West Coast Region)

Repeating Tournament Winning Armies:
Ogres- They have the tools in every phase and some really strong choices that some armies, particularly older ones, cannot deal with. (Broadside Bash Overall, BAO Overall, QCR Overall)
Orcs and Goblins- Amazingly, these guys are winning games. Turns out Savage Orc hordes backed by massive war machine pits and fanatic spam are pretty good. (WCGT Overall, SAWs Overall)
Warriors of Chaos- Not as good as the other two, but a lot of armies struggle against the DP and mobile PSun Spamming wins a lot of games. (Waaghpaca Overall, BSB and BAO Best General)
Dark Elves (old book)- The comp stigma keeps these guys at home a lot, but when they do show up it gets ugly fast. (QCR Best General, Waaghpaca Best General)

Decent Contenders-
High Elves- Same formula with a few new wrinkles, these guys have been steamrolling in RTTs, but seem to hit the wall against certain armies in major GTs. (WCGT and SCS Best General, WCGT 2nd Overall)
Brettonians- Yeah don't laugh. Most of my best general wins came playing this army with vanilla lists and a lot of strong players run this thing. (Alamo Overall, QCR and SAWs top 5)
Vamps- Some real problems against specific armies, but still really nasty when they choose to be. (Alamo Best General, QCR and SAWs top 5)
Skaven- Probably the most powerful army, now that DE are nerfed to mere Demigod status, but some serious comp and matchup issues. (QCR, WCGT, Waaghpaca, BAO, and SAWs top 5)
Beastmen- Yeah, beastmen. They get the pity vote in compy environments and have the herdstone cluster and bestistar for meaner venues. (Alamo 2nd Overall, SCS Overall)

Ok to play in compy environments-
Wood Elves- Yeah, believe it or not people have forgotten how to play against them, so a good general in a compy GT can do well. (QCR and BSB top 5)
Lizardmen(old)- The Slaan list never does well enough to offset the horrible soft scores, but otherwise a good army if you play old and new.
Tomb Kings- Strangely, this army has snuck up on people lately, mostly with construct/chariot builds with limited magic. (QCR and WCGT top 5)
Empire- A good general can do well in compy tournaments with this, but you cannot spam things and have to be a good painter. (QCR top 10, BAO top 5)

Ok to play in no comp environments-
Daemons- Too much lingering hate for what is ultimately an incredible weak book, outside of the boring as hell Nurgle build.
Chaos Dwarves- People hate this army (with good reason) to play it in any comped environment, but it has the tools to get things done at the Kobra Kai Dojo.
Dwarves- Anvil Gunline will not make you any friends, but it will win the occasional best general award. This book actually needs more help than any other right now.

My opinions are based on the last year or two of west coast play and how those armies have tended to do in that situation. Of the GTs I attended regularly the last two years, five were comp heavy (WCGT, QCR, Waughpaca, SCS, SAWs) and two were compless murderfests (Alamo and BAO). If we are talking purely battle points as the sole measuring stick for an army, I think it is presently a toss up between Ogres and likely the new DE for being able to rack up wins with fewer matchup issues. With Comp in the mix, I think Greenskins and Bretts are the most consistent winners with Beastmen close on their heels.

UK Rankings HQ

Warriors Of Chaos - 2848.2432
Daemons Of Chaos - 2769.6729
Empire - 2746.3661
Ogre Kingdoms - 2723.3003
Vampire Counts - 2564.1017
Dark Elves - 2563.1657 (old book)
High Elves - 2463.6408
Bretonnians - 2381.1631
Orcs & Goblins - 2363.8703
Dwarfs - 2297.9548
Chaos Dwarfs - 2226.0104
Tomb Kings - 2141.3995
Wood Elves - 1827.0699

Southcoast GT http://www.heelanhammer.com/SCGT/SCGT2013Results.pdf

Crossroads GT UK

Name Army Battle Sports Paint Total
1 Matt Cassidy Empire 46 30 23 99
1 Peyton Shipman Empire 40 30 29 99
3 Mike Rossi Wood Elves 41 30 27 98
4 Paul Gates VC 45 28 23 96
5 Brian Moyer Warriors of Chaos 42 28 23 93
6 Jeremy Gottschalk Warriors of Chaos 39 30 23 92
6 Kevin Bolster Demons of Chaos 39 26 27 92
8 Mike McLaughlin Vampire Counts 37 30 22 89
8 Gary No Demons of Chaos 35 30 24 89
8 Mike Norton Dark Elves 30 30 29 89
11 Alex Schmid Dark Elves 38 30 20 88
12 Jeremy Gagne Wood Elves 31 28 28 87
13 Caleb Edwards Brettonians 35 30 21 86
13 Andrew Sherman Empire 34 30 22 86
15 Travis Weyforth Chaos Dwarves 39 30 16 85
15 Alex Forsythe Demons of Chaos 35 30 20 85
15 Jason Clark Empire 32 30 23 85
15 Chris O'Brien Tomb Kings 31 30 24 85
19 Jon Vanase Demons of Chaos 32 30 22 84
20 Cory Walizer Beastmen 37 26 20 83

Call to War 2013

Overall Placing Firstname Lastname Army
1 Jack Armstrong Lizardmen
2 Andrew Avery Orcs & Goblins
3 Tom Hall Warriors of Chaos
4 Tom Harris Warriors of Chaos
5 Mark Borland Beastmen
6 Ian Sturgess High Elves
7 Matt Watkinson Orcs & Goblins
8 Matt Howley Empire
9 Lorenzo Ricagni Ogre Kingdoms
10 Matt Yeo Orcs & Goblins
11 Albert James Barr Skaven
12 Reinier Gouverneur Ogre Kingdoms
13 Shane Baxter Warriors of Chaos
14 Daniel Espling Dark Elves
15 Ben Curry Dark Elves
16 Andy Spiers Dwarfs
17 Tom Uden Beastmen
18 Mohammad Ashraf Empire
19 Anton Saturin Lizardmen
20 Jacques van der Puijl Vampire Counts

GJ Ian for 6th.

Alright, now that numbers are out of the way, we can see why certain armies place high. Most US events on the West coast aside from a few are comped (just like most majors around the world). I let off with what a friend of mine said because I find his input to be spot on.

What's REALLY interesting about all this is that you'll find a lack of Skaven. Let me tell you one thing: They are extremely powerful and borderline cheese, they just don't place well in tournaments because no one likes to bring them! It's a true fact that you don't want to trek 900 models to different places and events and have a good amount of broken models. They are an extremely powerful army, one of the remnants of 7th ed. brokeness.

With that said, the armies we see consistently at the top is..

Warriors of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Daemons of Chaos
Orks and Goblins
Dark Elves (old book)
Vampire Counts
Empire

Let's talk for a minute about why these armies are on top.
-Warriors of Chaos because they have borderline broken hero builds, chimera, ridiculously strong core (VERY IMPORTANT), armored threats, strong magic coverage.
-Daemons of Chaos: Because Nurgle is god awful stupid strong and Slaanesh is borderline. These two make up for what is a stupidly weak and poorly designed book and supplement it with Skull Cannons, Beasts of Nurgle and Caco Choir. In general why Chaos is on top is because Nurgle is good.
-Ogre Kingdoms - strong in all phases of the game, powerful combat, strong shooting, cannons that can fight, good chaff, good options
-Orks and Goblins - Cheap poison, cheap war machines, powerful stubborn blocks, fanatics and mangler squigs. Just an overall cheap book and needs a facelift.
-Dark Elves, ridiculous cost-effecient book with powerful options: Stubborn Crown, Pendant, Hydras, Sac Dagger, Cauldron, Witch hordes..etc.
-Vamp scream lists, blenderbuses, ethereal units, either wins big or loses big.
-Empire gunlines, light choir, with strong armored threats, a lot of armies just can't deal with this.

If I was to rank some armies from the tournament scene itself, it would be: Warriors, Ogres, Daemons, Orks and Goblins, (Dark Elves out cause of new book), Vampire and Empire, in that order.

Before I talk about why Dark Elves are going to be better than HE in the meta, I want to talk about one more thing: What makes these armies consistently strong? The answer: A solid core backbone, points-effective units that can maintain a strong KDR (kill to death ratio), strong magic, and solutions to the meta. All tournament players that I've talked to agree because this backbone is 625 points that's able to kill, main, generate points, or play scenarios. At the 600 or 625 mark, what really matters is your ability to smack things in combat and get away with it. Think about it for a second, what do Warriors, Daemons and Ogres share in common? All three of them consistently places high in tournaments without gimmicky builds? Warrior/Chariots, Bulls/Ironguts, PBs/maybe Horrors. Warriors and Chariots generate great KDR, so do Ironguts and so do PBs, and they do so with core allowance. All three have good magic, or a flexible selection for the meta they play in, and all three have the tools to deal with: ARMOR and MCs.

To sum it up:
1. Strong Core
2. Units that maintain good KDR
3. Strong Magic
4. Solutions to the meta: Armored threats and multi-wound MCs

Like I said,
HE and DE are about equal, with DE winning big vs. some and losing big vs. others. HE is more steady, neither winning or losing big.

Let's talk about vs. the meta really quick, hitting up the Top3 and then going downwards.

Warriors of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Daemons of Chaos

DE vs. WoC - Bad matchup, suffer the same fate as HE. Just can't do enough damage before taking an unholy # of wounds in return. At least HE can absorb most of this or sit still with White Lions, Phoenix Guard, DE just can't put out enough damage to justify the wounds back. Dark Magic might be stronger vs. them in this regard, Word of Pain being a key player and Shroud of Darkness as maybe having some effect, but with high S across the entire army, the big nuke in the lore won't be as powerful. Army-wide high WS also makes Bladestorm useless on Chaos Infantry blocks. To go a little further into the analysis, and I'm using my list as a prime candidate right now, there's just too many high armored targets on that side of the field that can throw down attacks in return. Just gotta make sure you bring enough threats to his flying DP and you should fair better.

WoC > HE > DE

Ogre Kingdoms - Pretty even matchup over here I think, maybe even an advantage. Cannons are obviously a problem vs. all of DE's monsters, but through combined shooting, magic missiles and power magic lores such as Death and Shadow, I think DE will be fine. The abundance of faster units with an crapton of attacks such as Witches, or sheer power at I such as Executioners will do good damage vs. Ogres. Executioner blocks need to be careful fighting Irongut hordes obviously, but I think this matchup can be outplayed through target selection (killing chaff) and letting loose your units while you re-direct and isolate his. As I noticed with my High Elves vs. some pretty good Ogre players, I don't think Ogre players are in a good place vs. ASF armies due to strong magic, shooting and plentiful redirection. It just seems to be one of our better matchups. After you win the chaff war, there's very little that's stopping you from completely dominating where the fatties go and isolating anad destroy. This is why 4x RBTs are recommended by me going forward, combined with throwing big dice at 2d6 S5 MMs, and shooting with Dark Rider RXBs.

OK = HE > DE

Daemons of Chaos - Decent MU, fairing better than HE. Not as bad as WoC, but popular DoC builds are really hard to deal with. Two builds in particular gives everyone trouble: Nurgle everywhere and Slaaneshi Choir bombs. In general, DoC is a horrific book with barely anything going for it, but the things it does have going for it more than makes up in power where the rest of the book is weak. I'm talking about Nurgle Beasts all over the place and those things are utterly ridiculous to deal with. However, I think Witch Elves are much better at dealing damage to these fatties than High Elves. Poison must not be underestimated and due to I6 vs. Slaaneshi I5, nothing in Daemon core beats Witch Elves for the damage in return, which is huge. Skullcannons are obviously a problem vs. any army fielding or is reliant on monsters for heavy S damage, but that's where your Bolt Throwers will lend a hand. I don't think Slaaneshi Choir bombs are going to be too great simply because you'll probably down the Keeper with shooting alone (you will have plenty) and Poison attacks means he doesn't want to go anywhere near the Witches. Just don't be stupid and feed him Warlocks because he'll choir them into extinction. Executioners are pretty bad vs. Daemons of Chaos unless you give them BoEternalFlame and it's probably something I would be doing next. If vs. giant scrub Nurgle farmers taking Epi and horde PBs, just go Death and 6-dice Purple Sun until you run out of things to do.

DE > DoC > HE

Orks and Goblins

Dark Magic is pretty strong in this matchup, doing serious damage to a large variety of things to the army. Large scale unit killing abilities such as Bladestorm (I realize its called Bladewind) and Black Horror can play a role here. Otherwise, it's a pretty stand up fight and it's not something I'm too concerned about. There's a reason why these guys are good and that's because they draw positive matchups vs. those running heavily armored knights and MCs via Fanatics and the rest of the bunch. Where they don't draw a positive matchup is a DE player who's willing to sit back and 4x RBT and play the chaff war while throwing kill spells all game.

DE = HE > OnG

Vampire Counts

Double Terrorgheist will hollar and kill all of monsters into the ground. Away from the General means certain death because with Ld.6, they're not going anywhere. Some people have been talking about taking the Medusa in this matchup because it'll give us favorable ethereal chaff killing and will do good damage vs. Terrorgheists. Frankly, you're mad because those things are 90 points per, have pitiful ass range and are only 3W with no saves of any kind. They're absolute ass and I don't think anyone should be buying into them. What you should be buying into is Warlocks because they're fast, outrange and outmanuever every Ethereal unit in the game while doing solid damage to most things in the army with 2d6 S5 missiles (or if you feel balls up, boosted). If you think about how VC draw their matches, they either win big or lose big with Mortis/Terror combo on footslogging Crypt Horrors + Blenderlord, or Blenderlord + 2x Terrorgheists, or Ethereal laming. DE will win big vs. Ethereal laming because we have Warlocks in addition to a Lv.4 for multi-castings for magic missiles, and you can always challenge out their characters one by one until they're all dead because you have ASF and a magic weapon. No armored cav bus likes to face Executioners and no Vampire Lord of a VC army wants to be anywhere near them either. With two units really effective against Crypt Horrors (poison, ASF, re-roll wounds due to Cauldron and Executioners packing Flame banner), DE will be just fine. Magic wise, the same stuff that kills VC dead will be available for the Dark Elves now they have access to all the lores. Low WS army wide means that Bladestorm will do good damage, +1S will kill units quicker, faster I and ASF will make the Blenderlord much weaker, and RBTs makes knight buses cry.

DE > HE > VC

Empire

Honestly, the only reason why Empire places high is because they stomp on WoC pretty hard, most Daemons, and most VC, and Ogres if you think about it. Stubborn on a lot of units, armor all over the place, Light Council + enough shooting to make Chimeras want to fly off the board. There's a lot of good stuff here, too bad all of them are equally effective at killing Elves as they are the #1 tournament taker (WoC). Empire stubborn gunlines are infuriating to play against, I don't know how many of you actually played against them but it's pretty bad. What you need to do is just get in their face early, neutrailize their shooting and engage in combat. Their shooting will be pretty selective as you'll hopefully place multiple units on the field that'll draw their attention. Warlocks should be hunting Warmachines alongside your Dark Riders while you push your blocks forward and lock them in an attrition battle. Thankfully, your fighting prowess is much better than theirs which is important to take advantage of this ASAP. You're more expensive than they are, so you obviously need to even the odds with some well placed kill spells. Dark Magic will be effective in this matchup and you have better flankers, but I think they are better for actually absorbing the damage and grinding it out.

DE = HE = Empire

OK, that's it for now.

[Kheel]

But all in all i think this book is not stronger then the last one. We lost alot Defensive stuff. The Cauldron is a expensive shadow of the last one..

If "expensive shadow" means it has never been as usefull and powerfull as it is now, then I couldn't agree more.
Th previous Cauldron was weak sauce and easy to take out by small unaits of skinks or small rat darts etc.
This new cauldron is basically indestructable except to cannons and high strength in close combat.
It gives witch elves 5+ ward save, which if we're honest is what we did every turn with the old cauldron, the difference now is that you do not risk the annoying thing "OH I FORGOT TO GIVE THE BUFF!!". On TOP of that, you can give the +1 attack to anything you want thanks to the frenzy bound spell.
And the cauldron itself has MR1 which stacks with the 5+ ward save against spells.
If the cauldron was 500 points, I would still take it in every army I could! Thankfully it's only 275 points, and that is why the new CoB take over the throne for most underprized, which belonged to the hydra in the previous book.

[CreativeName]

Well I appreciate the thesis prof Hero! Ha

I seriously didn't read it all word for word but what I took from it is that all the armies are damn close and it's in the players' hands to lose. I cast my lot in with the side that agrees this book is far from OP.

[Omnichron]

But all in all i think this book is not stronger then the last one. We lost alot Defensive stuff. The Cauldron is a expensive shadow of the last one..

If "expensive shadow" means it has never been as usefull and powerfull as it is now, then I couldn't agree more.
Th previous Cauldron was weak sauce and easy to take out by small unaits of skinks or small rat darts etc.
This new cauldron is basically indestructable except to cannons and high strength in close combat.
It gives witch elves 5+ ward save, which if we're honest is what we did every turn with the old cauldron, the difference now is that you do not risk the annoying thing "OH I FORGOT TO GIVE THE BUFF!!". On TOP of that, you can give the +1 attack to anything you want thanks to the frenzy bound spell.
And the cauldron itself has MR1 which stacks with the 5+ ward save against spells.
If the cauldron was 500 points, I would still take it in every army I could! Thankfully it's only 275 points, and that is why the new CoB take over the throne for most underprized, which belonged to the hydra in the previous book.

The old cauldron was cheaper, had T10 4++ (for the crew as well), magic resistance and would survive just about anything is it wasn't put out on a flank or somewhere that the mentioned units would get to it easily. Giving that 5+ ward buff or +1 attack to any unit anywhere within 24 was better than the current one. Now you have to put it into a big unit, most likely a unit of WE to get the benefit of 5++ ward instead of 6++, and it's a huge load of points and also means a less manouverable/flexible army.

I think that the new Cauldron is okay, but it's expensive as is. For 500 pts, you'll get two units of medium sized WE/Executioners, which is much stronger than having one model that is a cannon magnet.

As for what tier the new DE book is... I'd say it's around HE level of strength, and would rate DoC, VC and maybe Ogres to be over them in powerlevel. Skaven also has the edge against the elven armies, but they struggle a bit more against other things.