LOS and Modelling

[Archamedius]

So the other weekend I went to a tournament, and for round 3 I was on table 1. Several times my opponent drew line of sight through my Cauldron of blood (the new model) to my sorceress on foot behind the cauldron in a unit of bleakswords. He did this with both a cannon and a hellblaster. Both times he was like...."So I can see her boob so I can draw line of sight" and since her boob is not a weapon or tail, etc. he claimed he could use it for LOS. I had to let it go as the guy was being a stickler about a lot of rules and we were already the last game to finish. (Before you suggest calling a judge, in my area, if you call a judge he will rule against you, so you don't call a judge) So it got me thinking. LOS is True LOS in this game, so if I do some very fancy modelling to the back of the base the Cauldron is on to block LOS (a fancy brick wall, or thick hedge of trees, etc.) would that be legal. And then the follow up would be what if I do that to the movement tray, as part of it's display? Would that be a legal way to block LOS?

Personally I am not one to go that extra mile to stretch the rules in my favor but I feel like a large target like the cauldron should block LOS to an infantry model behind it. I also feel like as the 2014 tournament season starts gearing up that I am going to see a lot more of this crap at places like Adepticon, Buckeye Battles, etc. (I intend to be competitive this year) so I want to prepare for it best I can, within the rules and not in a beardy fashion.

Thoughts?

[Daeron]

True Line of Sight... at its best. Yes, this is the kind of situations you can have with true line of sight, and why cannons are now 21st era laser-guided precision guns.

From what I understood, he's correct about being able to see the Sorceress but there's a catch. He must choose a point where to shoot the cannon ball at, and -that- is the point he must be able to see. So if he sees the Sorceress, he might aim his cannon at the sorceress, but then the two artillery dice still have to be added starting at the Sorceress. If he wants to take the Sorceress as a point of reference, then guess 10" less (to increase the odds of hitting her), then he has to see this point of 10" less on the ground to be valid. If that point is behind the Cauldron and blocked from line of sight, it's a no go.

I have to reread the rules on this though... I'm not entirely sure about it.

[Thraundil]

Oh, sounds like your opponent was a right git... Just to clarify, your sorceress was not in the same unit as the cauldron, right?

In either case. It is, in principle, legal... But very far fetched. RAW youc an take the shot, but I would consider it kind of poor sportsmanship to insist on shooting through what is a bloody chariot. I mean literally shooting through it, really?

What Daeron says is correct, though. He can direct the ball at the sorceress for sure, but he wont be very likely to hit her

As for modelling your way out of this. In principle, any modification made to a model that makes it non standard, is "neglected" for terms of line of sight (extreme example: if you make a standard bearer with a 4" by 4" banner, he does NOT block line of sight of your entire army :p ). So gits like this would indeed be able to shoot your sorceress through your cauldron, as a large target only means you cant benefit from cover, it doesnt mean you block shots.

[Archamedius]

The hellblaster is what bothered me most. i could see a cannon lobbing a shot over the cauldron like a mortar, but the hellblaster just unloading and somehow all 20 shots (what he rolled on the dice) making it through the itty bitty holes in the cauldron?

[Daeron]

With the Hellblaster, it's all auto-hits right? I believe it works just like a magic missile. If you're visible, you can be hit, regardless of what stands in the way.

[Enkiel]

empire hellblaster arent auto-hit.

so you get soft/hard cover if he shoots through units.

[Gidean]

What you are suggesting about modeling a wall is called "Modeling to Advantage" amongst the Hobbyists and very bad form. More so than your opponent being a stickler. Hate the game not the player. Those are the current rules. Can't tell you how many guys I see play with laser pointers.

But for cannons he does have to see the point where he wants the ball the strike (initial bounce). He'll likely just pick your Cauldron and count on it bouncing through.

[Dalamar]

That was a correct interpretation of TLoS but theres a catch and Daeron explained it correctly.
Hell, your opponent doesn't even have to see the sorceress to shoot at her with a cannon, all he needs is the magic spot 10" in front of her. So block that spot!

Hellblaster is a different beast altogether. If your sorceress was out of the unit, he could shoot her at -2 to hit for hard cover and more than likely another -1 for range... so hitting on 7+ without an engineer to help. Not the best odds on a machine that's likely to explode.

Another thing to remember is that cannons can't shoot so that they potentially hit their own troops. So if there's an enemy unit somewhere between the initial spot and 20" further, the shot can't be taken. I've found that enemy units are your best protection from enemy cannons.

As cor modelling... just don't do it. It will make your army (and you) look bad and is no protection from cannons.

[Archamedius]

That was a correct interpretation of TLoS but theres a catch and Daeron explained it correctly.
Hell, your opponent doesn't even have to see the sorceress to shoot at her with a cannon, all he needs is the magic spot 10" in front of her. So block that spot!

Hellblaster is a different beast altogether. If your sorceress was out of the unit, he could shoot her at -2 to hit for hard cover and more than likely another -1 for range... so hitting on 7+ without an engineer to help. Not the best odds on a machine that's likely to explode.

Another thing to remember is that cannons can't shoot so that they potentially hit their own troops. So if there's an enemy unit somewhere between the initial spot and 20" further, the shot can't be taken. I've found that enemy units are your best protection from enemy cannons.

As cor modelling... just don't do it. It will make your army (and you) look bad and is no protection from cannons.

The Hellblaster needs to roll to hit????!? He was playing it 3 rolls of the artillery die str 5 AP HITS. No rolling to hit, just roll to wound. Wow I got bamboozled big time if he has to roll to hit. (he rolled 20+ on every hellblaster shot he rolled, only rolled the missfire once, and all that did was halve the # of shots.)

[Dalamar]

Yeah. The crew has BS3 engineer can use his to help them for BS4.

It used to be auto hits in the previous book but it was far more likely to explode as well (and they were S4 hits at over 12").
He got the amount right (3x artillery dice) but it's shots, not hits.

[Gidean]

That was a correct interpretation of TLoS but theres a catch and Daeron explained it correctly.
Hell, your opponent doesn't even have to see the sorceress to shoot at her with a cannon, all he needs is the magic spot 10" in front of her. So block that spot!

Hellblaster is a different beast altogether. If your sorceress was out of the unit, he could shoot her at -2 to hit for hard cover and more than likely another -1 for range... so hitting on 7+ without an engineer to help. Not the best odds on a machine that's likely to explode.

Another thing to remember is that cannons can't shoot so that they potentially hit their own troops. So if there's an enemy unit somewhere between the initial spot and 20" further, the shot can't be taken. I've found that enemy units are your best protection from enemy cannons.

As cor modelling... just don't do it. It will make your army (and you) look bad and is no protection from cannons.

The Hellblaster needs to roll to hit????!? He was playing it 3 rolls of the artillery die str 5 AP HITS. No rolling to hit, just roll to wound. Wow I got bamboozled big time if he has to roll to hit. (he rolled 20+ on every hellblaster shot he rolled, only rolled the missfire once, and all that did was halve the # of shots.)

Was he playing Empire or Dwarves? Dwarven Organ guns don't roll to hit.

[Dalamar]

Dwarven organ gun also only rolls a single artillery die for hits instead of 3

[Gerner]

And that is why you never play with true line of sight in fantasy.

[kaloomte]

Yeah. The crew has BS3 engineer can use his to help them for BS4.

It used to be auto hits in the previous book but it was far more likely to explode as well (and they were S4 hits at over 12").
He got the amount right (3x artillery dice) but it's shots, not hits.

Hmm...sounds Gidean got hozed.

For someone being that much of a stickler, he was playing fast and loose with the editions. Perhaps unintentionally, but...

[Dalamar]

And that is why you never play with true line of sight in fantasy.

Why is that? True line of sight is great.

[Gerner]

And that is why you never play with true line of sight in fantasy.

Why is that? True line of sight is great.

I think it is problem.
Most forests and ruins doesn't have enough density, hills are too swallow, impassable terrain is too short, etc..
TLS can cause so much discussion and debate.

We always play with the following rules:

Line of Sight

A modified version of "Simple LoS" will be used:

Terrain pieces are divided into ones that:
- Block LoS: Hills, Buildings and impassable terrain.
- Don't block LoS: all other terrain.

Unit is considered to be in hard cover when:
- majority of unit's footprint is obscured from shooter's Line of Sight by more than one interfering unit or a LoS blocking terrain, as described on page 41 BRB
- unit is garrisoning a Building, as described on page 127 BRB
- unit is defending an obstacle, as described on page 122 BRB
- majority of unit's footprint is in Ruins

Unit is considered to be in soft cover when:
- your models shoot through or into woods, as described on page 119 BRB
- majority of unit's footprint is obscured from shooter's Line of Sight by an interfering unit.

Models shooting from hills or buildings don't get the hard cover penalty for shooting through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Units with majority of its footprint on hill do not receive hard cover for being shot at through interfering units, unless interfering unit is also on hill.

Large Targets can't claim cover for obstacles, ruins and interfering units, unless the interfering unit is also a Large Target."

[Dalamar]

All forests give light cover regardless of density, this is absolutely no different from previous edition... like no difference at all unless you're hiding a single model behind a thick tree.

Ruins... well those depend on ruins, but most are big enough to provide hard cover (which is better than obstacles because with ruins you don't have to defend them)

There is no ambiguity, you lean down and look. can you see it? yes - you can shoot it, no - you can't shoot it
Can you see most of it? yes - no modifiers, no - modifiers depending on what's in the way.

Forest are only exception to this rule and that's even specified in the rulebook.

[Gidean]

Yeah. The crew has BS3 engineer can use his to help them for BS4.

It used to be auto hits in the previous book but it was far more likely to explode as well (and they were S4 hits at over 12").
He got the amount right (3x artillery dice) but it's shots, not hits.

Hmm...sounds Gidean got hozed.

For someone being that much of a stickler, he was playing fast and loose with the editions. Perhaps unintentionally, but...

I didn't get hosed. The OP did. When my sons play his Dwarves he only rolls the single artillery dice. Of course the little git often rolls a 10!

And Dal...you won't win your argument with Gerner. He's from Denmark. Thus ETC rules probably govern his meta. We all know that ETC rules is Warhammer 7.5 not 8th edition.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

the Big thing between 7th and 8th is that forests used to block LOS from one side to the other or if you were more than 2" inside the forest. Also forests slowed you to half speed and you could not march.

now forests do nothing to stop charges other than trip the occasional model.

[Thraundil]

Wow man, the OP got hosed big time... Sounds like his opponent played strict with rules that would favour him, then lightly skipped over the stuff that worked against him

Yep, we do play ETC restrictions a lot in danish tourneys. Simple LoS is just alot, well, simpler to keep track of. Buildings and hills being infinitely high for example, so you dont have to argue whether or not your dragon can be seen because the model is big, or because the hill is a little bit too short.

[Gerner]

And Dal...you won't win your argument with Gerner. He's from Denmark. Thus ETC rules probably govern his meta. We all know that ETC rules is Warhammer 7.5 not 8th edition.

I almost never play ETC. Mostly Swedish and 2MD.
We often play with stand-ins and conversions which doesn't go well with TLS.

[Daeron]

It's also because a lot of buildings are made at a different scale than the models.. or hills for that matter.
"Here is a rocky mountain! It has the size of a large sandcastle, one can build on a day with two men equipped with shovels.. But it's a rocky mountain! A mountain I say!"

[Dalamar]

GW hills are just the right size to hide infantry behind.

[Geist]

At this point the only thing I can think to add to this thread is DIE DEAD HORSE DIE DAMN YOU!!!!
(I kid I kid)