Bloodwrack Shrine useless?

[King-OT-Horseflies]

Please prove me wrong! After carefully reading and considering the rules of the Bloodwrack Shrine (an awesome model), I have come to the conclusion that its effectively worthless at anything more than 75 points or so. I think a single Orge Leadbelcher can dish out more hurt than this thing.

[Haagrum]

Please prove me wrong! After carefully reading and considering the rules of the Bloodwrack Shrine (an awesome model), I have come to the conclusion that its effectively worthless at anything more than 75 points or so. I think a single Orge Leadbelcher can dish out more hurt than this thing.

It's a chariot that can march and join units, with a few neat tricks of its own, including the ability to cause Terror. The real value of the Bloodwrack Shrine is the synergy with other Dark Elf units, but it won't wreck your opponent's list by itself.

It buffs your nearby units' Leadership.

If it's in one of your infantry units, it effectively boosts the number of models by 15, makes it cause Terror, and gives it Magic Resistance (1) without slowing it down at all and putting a hard-to-kill model that does Impact Hits front and centre.

It debuffs your opponent's nearby units' Leadership.

It gives you a Stand and Shoot/in-combat effect that ignores armour saves.

It attracts missile and war machine fire which you may prefer does not get directed at your other troops.

Finally, it also looks awesome.

[Dalamar]

I've been using it in every game since the book came out and only found it useless once. When I attempted to run it outside of a unit... it died on turn 2 from a hellblaster... I think my opponent was really scared of the expensive chariot.

[Canadianguy]

Starting to think I would play it before I use the cauldron.
Would like to know if anyone has used it in a msu list to quickly give a unit rank bonus or bury a character in the 2nd rank?

[Dalamar]

That's the only time it was useless to me, I used it in an MSU list, trucking behind units to hop into one that needed it when it needed it. It's a juicy and imposing target.

[Kheel]

As been stated before, it "counts as" 15 models for the unit. It displaces 15 models, which makes template weapons less threatening. A large flame or large blast will probably land so it touches the shrine, and saves that many models on it's own. It is T6, which is fairly hard to kill.
I like the shrine, when I don't run it as a CoB I take it as a Shrine for this use.

[Colonel]

Perhaps not worth its points but far from useless. In a recent game I had mine (in a unit) move up and shoot a steggadon for 2 wounds, then kill it on the stand and shoot. Against Low init it can rock.. so miasma some fools!

[Clockwork]

I'm strongly considering adding one to my MSU list. Mostly because I don't have my second unit of Warlocks yet, and my old converted Cauldron is still kicking about, but also because there's a couple of nice things it brings. Namely, buffing up a unit's size and ranks, providing impact hits on a charge, and potentially drawing CC attacks away from the rank and file. Plus the additional +1 Leadership to Dark Elves within 6" is another effective Ld "bubble" to go alongside General's Leadership and BSB re-rolls - handy when you have lots of units spread out over a great distance. The Leadership debuffingm Terror/Fear and Medusa itself are really just icing on the cake.

It takes 10 Sisters of Slaughter and makes them actually not bad at killing Nurgle Chaos Warriors, for instance. And anything which can do that gets a thumbs up in my book.

[Gidean]

Please prove me wrong! After carefully reading and considering the rules of the Bloodwrack Shrine (an awesome model), I have come to the conclusion that its effectively worthless at anything more than 75 points or so. I think a single Orge Leadbelcher can dish out more hurt than this thing.

Yes you are wrong. Big discussion about the usefulness of this unit in the Two Towers Thread on these forums.

[Trosfuktaren]

Ran a bloodwrack with 40 spearmen today, worked pretty well. However, i lucked the shiz out. I was playing against ogres, a unit of 8 ogres and a fully kitted tyrant charged me since i fail charged the turn before. Had my bsb and lvl 4 metal in second rank. Lore of metal is not that good against ogres but its a tournament list i'm trying out.

Here's what happened:
The ogres lost their fear test due to the bloodwracks terror and -1ld with bsb reroll. Point bloodwrack
I lost combat but was steadfast by miles

My turn:
Ogres lose fear test again with bsb reroll
I get off enchanted blades of aiban +1 to hit, AP
I get off Glittering robe giving my spearmen 3+ AS
The bloodwrack does two wounds with avert your gaze (not optimal against ogres even though they are like I2)
I win combat by 2, he gets another -1 to ld roll, he fails, his bsb happens to be in range, he fails again.

I've been thinking about running it with a small unit of sister, perhaps around 15 with a sorc in second rank. 4+ ward in cc, taking away parry and rank etc. With 15 models you will have 6 full ranks, on the charge it is devastating against medium sized units.

[paithan darkshadow]

that sisters plan is genius. i have been runnning it in my large (ish) executioner block but the sisters idea is brilliant. I like to theme my armies and I have done a list that has some hydra elements and the shrine works as a centre of worship for this so I like running it a unit of doomfire warlocks for magic and a dragon lord. but the sisters as a focus unit is a great idea will be rewriting this list to make this work as soon as I get home.

[Entreri bloodletter]

I have played about 4 games now with the shrine in a unit of 12-15 sisters and found it very useful in almost every game. It does really well against anything that can't kill the shrine in a single round of combat or is stubborn or unbreakable. I've been running the unit with the Warbanner, and a BSB in the second rank. Even with only 9 sisters remaining(+1 for BSB) I have 3 ranks, 3 standards, enemy gets no rank bonus and a front rank of my own that is incredibly hard to kill. With a static CR of 6, and probably doing a couple of wounds against your opponent it can be very hard to break and can often break the enemy in a single round.

Biggest weakness of the unit is cannons, losing the shrine before it gets to combat is a huge blow, and BS based shooting. The shooting can be minimized by proper screening but you will likely have to weather two rounds of cannon fire before you can take out enemy warmachines.

I've recently switched to Shadow magic to complement the Medusa's Gaze even more, Mindrazor is of course always useful. Even the other spells have their place in making the Shrine a viable choice. Miasma for lowering WS, even against a WS4 opponent, an average roll of 2 means that you are only hit on 5's in close combat. (Go WS5 on the Medusa!) Enfeebling Foe can ensure that even great weapon wielding troops are struggling to wound the T6 shrine.

In short that is how I've been playing with it, I'm sure it has many more uses I have not fiddled with yet but it is a unit that takes careful consideration when making a list because not all of its strengths are evident simply by looking at statlines and point costs.

[marcopollo]

I've chosen it to run with 25 corsairs (2hw). Makes a unit equivalently equal to 40 models. They are a close second to sisters but because they round out core points,I use them instead. I also hide my SS (life) in the back ranks with a crown of command. I give the unit t +1 movement banner and force myself into central positions. I've played against OK, OnG, Brets and VC with moderate success. Life really helps.

They can take a flank charge and still survive. I find that the crown is a bit of overkill but, for now it stays in.

If I could afford to find points for sisters I would use them.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

I 'd rather have a bloodwrack shrine than a scourgerunner. I see it having a use simialr to a skaven doomwheel. A marching chariot that can shelter in units of need be and then charge out on it's own and has multiple kilingblow shots is pretty cool.

[Kal-el666]

Since when is it possible to put a character, like a Sorceress in the 2nd rank? Doesn't it explicitly say on page 97 of the Hardback Rulebook that characters MUST be placed in the front rank?

[T.D.]

Since when is it possible to put a character, like a Sorceress in the 2nd rank? Doesn't it explicitly say on page 97 of the Hardback Rulebook that characters MUST be placed in the front rank?

Only when there is space. If the command group and other characters fill the front rank, additional characters go behind.

I have played about 4 games now with the shrine in a unit of 12-15 sisters and found it very useful in almost every game. It does really well against anything that can't kill the shrine in a single round of combat or is stubborn or unbreakable. I've been running the unit with the Warbanner, and a BSB in the second rank. Even with only 9 sisters remaining(+1 for BSB) I have 3 ranks, 3 standards, enemy gets no rank bonus and a front rank of my own that is incredibly hard to kill. With a static CR of 6, and probably doing a couple of wounds against your opponent it can be very hard to break and can often break the enemy in a single round.

Hi Entreri,

Would you consider writing up a tactica on this use of the Sisters/Shrine?

The basic philosophy, strengths and weaknesses, and some game experiences would be good

If you don't want to create a new thread, then possibly on Scyloc's?

Cheers

[Kal-el666]

Of course, I'm aware that you can put her into the 2nd rank if there is no space, but how does that work in the plan described above, and how do you rank them up to get 6 full ranks?

'I've been thinking about running it with a small unit of sister, perhaps around 15 with a sorc in second rank. 4+ ward in cc, taking away parry and rank etc. With 15 models you will have 6 full ranks, on the charge it is devastating against medium sized units.'

[Dragon9]

The shrine takes up 3 files, and he puts only one model on each side. Shrine is 5 models deep, so that's 10 models, plus the last 5 in back row. 6 ranks.

[Gerner]

Of course, I'm aware that you can put her into the 2nd rank if there is no space, but how does that work in the plan described above, and how do you rank them up to get 6 full ranks?

'I've been thinking about running it with a small unit of sister, perhaps around 15 with a sorc in second rank. 4+ ward in cc, taking away parry and rank etc. With 15 models you will have 6 full ranks, on the charge it is devastating against medium sized units.'

The shrine is 3*20 bases wide and 5*20 bases deep, so it takes up a lot of space and makes a 15 man unit to a 30 man unit size.

[Kal-el666]

ok, so which models go into the front, so there is no space for the Sorceress? if she is the only character, doesn't she go into the front with the captain and pushes the SB and the M back?

[Dalamar]

No, command group has priority in the first rank over characters.

[T.D.]

BRB pg 97

"When characters join a unit they are placed in the front rank (regardless of distance). Rank-and-file models except for the command group that must remain in the front rank, are moved to the back rank to make room for the characters. If there is no more room in the front rank, some characters will have to go in the second rank."

Key point is that command group must remain in the front rank, not characters.

So if a Shrine takes up 3 spaces, and you are five wide - then CG is in the front rank, any characters behind.

[Kal-el666]

got it! says so on page 97. thanks guys, this is really a great combo then

[King-OT-Horseflies]

I dunno guys, I've tried it in several games now and never once has the bloodwrack helped much at all, certainly not enough to justify its points. Cauldron is far, far superior.

[Dalamar]

To each their own, the shrine makes my exec horde a monster on the field.