2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

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Daeron
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2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Daeron »

It's been a while since I had another Warhammer game, been even longer since I had a 2.4K game. So I was quite happy to be invited to fight a friend's new Dwarfs for a 2.4K game! A chance to try out my two towers list.
I prepped up with some theorycrafting on what would work against the Dwarfs and what would not. I figured my best shot to counter Gyros would be Doombolt with RBTs to make any missed wounds. I worked out that the combat of my two main blocks should be enough to fight most combat units, if I could cause enough damage in the first round of combat.
Finally, I was forced to tailor my two towers list to match the models I had, forced to drop a third RBT for some Shades. But the rest worked.

My list
305pts - High Sorceress, Level 4, Black Amulet, Tome of Furion
193pts - Master, Peg, Full armor, CoT, Lance
300pts - Death Hag, COB, BSB
383pts - 28 WEs, FC, Banner of Armor Piercing (here comes the COB)
110pts - 5 DRs, Shields, Mus, RXBs
110pts - 5 DRs, Shields, Mus, RXBs
344pts - 27 EXEs, Banner, Mus (here comes the BWS)
140pts - 2 RBTs
90pts - 5 Shades, GW
175pts - Bloodwrack Shrine
125pts - 5 Warlocks
125pts - 5 Warlocks

His list
Thane, BSB, decent armor save, great weapon (I think)
Rune Smith, Dispel rune, devastating charge horn or something?
12 Quarrelers, Great Weapons
12 Quarrelers, Great Weapons, Shields
10 Quarrelers, Shields
10 Quarrelers, Great Weapons, Shields
23 Hammerers, Full Command with vanguard (here go the Thane and Rune Smith)
15 Slayers, Full Command with vanguard
2 Gyros without Vanguard
1 Gyro with Vanguard
10 Miners
15 Rangers, Shields, Great Weapons
15 Rangers, Shields, Great Weapons

Pre battle thoughts

We played open list. I was somewhat alerted by his vanguarding abilities, but for some reason I didn't really register it as a problem. I did notice a lot of shooting, so that was a concern. And then I heard about the gyros and feared that 3 of them would blow my infantry to smitherines. Hm. I was somewhat relieved to see a lack of warmachines which I always, always... dreaded.


Deployment

My main goal was simple to have a path to his combat units, while dodging his shooting. After deploying some fast, flexible units all around and my witch elves in the middle, he had started deploying his shooting on his right flank. I countered this by putting my executioners on my far right.
My executioners were far away, but at least they were safe. Had I placed them elsewhere, I would have been forced to reach combat quickly to keep them safe. Sure, my list had the means for it, but such pressure has pushed me to mistakes in the past... so I wanted to bide my time.
I find myself still taken off guard by his rangers. An enemy with scouting? Why.. I haven't faced it enough to have that built-in reflex. If I had placed my Shades on the right, perhaps I would have had a clearer path. Now I'd have to smash through, which isn't a bad prospect per se. But as it is, I wanted to keep his rangers away from that tower so I put my shades there instead.

Image

As far as scouting goes, I must hand it to my opponent. He beat me there.


Vanguard
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Even though we played with an open list, I'm still surprised to face an enemy with so many vanguard units. His first move are the slayers who immediately block the centre. As I explained in the Dwarf thread, I wasn't going to let that daunt me, so I countered with my dark riders. This would prevent his Hammerers to join the battle line, effectively killing that vanguard strategy. It would also avoid his single vanguard Copter to come closer to my main blocks.
My opponent could have used his rangers to ensure a safe vanguard on his end but he didn't or couldn't do it safely. I counted myself victorious in this round. His battle line is a bit messy, mine is not. And with M3 against M5, that's supposed to be an edge. We keep shuffling units, but nothing trumps the importance of the first two moves.


Top of Turn 1 - Dark Elves

Image

I get to start, which is awesome. One dark rider unit moves to block his hammerers, another tries to jump between the gap of his line. The rest of the army moves on and for some reason I still can't explain I thought it made sense to put my warlocks in front of my witch elves. I reasoned that it gives them a safe escape route should they be charged, yet advance them.

Winds of magic rolls 2-1, but adding the channels gives me a 4th dice for a single doom bolt on his gyrocopter G1. My opponent is torn between scrolling it or letting it get through. He tries the dispel but fails. I don't make an impressive roll on the hits and the Gyro takes 2 wounds.
My shooting phase sees the RBTs take the final wound from the Gyro: textbook tactic.
The RXBs fire at some Quarrelers but don't really do a thing.



Bottom of Turn 1 - Dwarfs

Image

His Rangers charge my Shades and destroy them in a single go. I did fluff my attacks.. but it wouldn't have made a difference.
Then he declares a charge from Gyro 2 to my Dark Riders blocking his Hammerers. I stand and shoot, knowing that even if he succeeds the charge he now effectively blocked his hammerers completely. Seeing the position he's in, he declares a charge with the Hammerers as well. My Dark Riders flee but only roll 6. His Gyro fails the charge but the Hammerers catch them with an astounding roll. This immediately turns the game as now I have a Hammerer unit coming up my flank faster than expected.
His Slayers move back a little, to form a better battle line.
Not a total loss though: it keeps another gyro occupied and away from my troops.

His third gyro tries the breath weapon on my dark riders and fails to do a wound. 5 hits, Strength 3 and a 5+ armour save is a bit random but this was unexpected the statistics
His other shooting has little to go for and fires at my RBT, doing a single wound.


Top of Turn 2 - Dark Elves

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Confident in my magic blasting abilities I don't charge with the Warlocks on his Gyrocopter (it was a long shot anyway). I instead try to dominate the back of his battle line. My Witches approach the Slayers to 11-12 inches or so, forcing him to roll a 9 on the charge while keeping me on a more comfortable 7 should he stay. I'm wary about coming closer, since that would expose my flank to his rangers. In retrospect, I may have overestimated that threat. My peg master moves to play bodyguard for the Warlocks.
The rest approaches to make a good flank.

Magic is another dud (must have been 2 or something) and nothing happens. Without backup from the magic, I count my odds to gun down a gyro to be slim and fire away on the Quarrelers instead. But the performance is rubbish and only a couple die to the combined firepower of my warmachines and DR's.

Bottom of Turn 2 - Dwarfs

Image

I'm caught by surprise: apparently his third gyro could see my Dark Riders and declared a charge on my Dark Rider flank.. which succeeded. His Hammerers move to complete his battle line and his miners pop up on the rear of my Witch Elves. He positions his rangers on my right to avoid any flank.
His second Gyro drops his bomb on my Warlocks. I'm absolutely stunned to learn that it isn't a template weapon (which I had relied on for this move) but an artillery dice worth of autohits! I was going to damn that, but he rolled a misfire and took a wound instead. His firing squad tries to make up for it, and rolls 5-6 wounds on the warlocks from far far away. I fluff each and every ward save.
I'm also annoyed to learn my bodyguarding Peg Master didn't do a good enough job as the gyro landed safely out of the charge arc.
The rest of his shooting focuses on the second bolt thrower, killing it.

In the Dark Rider vs Gyro battle, no wounds are done but I pass the break test.

Top of Turn 3 - Dark Elves

Image

My Peg Master couldn't charge his Gyro, but my other Warlocks could.. and so they did. My Executioners charge the rangers but they flee. A redirect didn't save me. Here I reluctantly refrain my Witch Elves from charging. They could make a good fight, but they fail the charge then a combo charge against it would be too easy. If they succeed, then the returning charge would be devastating and could block my chance to flank the Slayers with the Executioners.

Magic is another dud, rolling low. I don't remember if he scrolled or dispelled whatever one spell I may have tried to get.

The one RBT takes down a couple of Quarrelers.

Combat sees the Gyro vs Warlock in favor of the Warlocks, but the Gyro survives and passes the breaktest. In the Dark Rider vs Gyro battle, I lose 1 DR but pass the break test.

Bottom of turn 3 - Dwarfs

Image

The dreaded combo charge comes. He includes a single use item that gives him devastating charge for the Hammerers and the Slayers. I hoped 3 out of 3 would be hard to get, and so it was. His miners and Hammerers charge the Witch Elves but the slayers fail the charge.
His firing squads turn to the rest of the battle while his rangers finish off the final RBT. He positions his hammerers in a nasty way: to the left of the COB, denying half the unit their combat. Apparently that's legal because he already maxed his models in B2B.

His rangers rally.

In Combat we see the fluffs of all fluffs. My Hag doesn't do a thing. The Witches almost entirely fluff the first roll, almost entirely fluff the reroll, scoring no poisons. Only a couple of wounds go through, which are fluffed but the reroll helps getting 3-4 wounds through in total.. which my opponent doesn't save.
The Miners are a little less lucky, losing 6 models in the first round.
In retalliation he kills less a dozen witch elves. I don't have steadfast but the Ld10 Sorceress (thank you BWS) helps them pass the break test. *grunt*

My Warlocks kill his Gyro and I can reform them for a charge on the miners. In the Dark Rider vs Gyro battle, I lose 1 DR but pass the break test.

Top of Turn 4 - Dark Elves

Image

Well apparently I killed just about enough Hammerers to make it impossible to flank them with my Executioners. Instead I'm going for the Slayers.
My Peg Master and Warlocks combo charge the flank of his rangers.

Magic is.... dun dun dun... A dud. The combined powerdice give me enough for one spell which he stops, I think.

Combat is a fun round. The miners are down to 3 but here something odd happens: I had placed my peg master on the edge and suddenly he has no enemy in B2B contact. He can no longer use his peg attacks, not reform, not overrun.. nothing. I scream unfair, but that's the rules when you have "no more foes". The enemy does break, but considering the position of my troops I decide to abandon the opportunity to let the warlocks run into the Slayers and reform them to go help my DR's. The rangers flee across the battlefield.
The Executioners tear the slayers apart. Their revenge attack does kill a few, but they are utterly destroyed. The unit reforms to face the Hammerers.

The Witch Elves score sub par again. I focus as many attacks as I can to the back, but in spite of the flurry of attacks I kill only 3 miners leaving 1 which blocks my reform and adds +2 static combat res. Urgh. I tire of my dice there. To the front, I kill some hammerers but nothing spectacular in spite of the many rerolls.
The streak of poor rolls goes both ways this time and his characters fluff their attacks as well (no rerolls for you! Ha!).
I lose the combat, but not by much and the unit passes the breaktest.

In the Dark Rider vs Gyro battle, I lose 1 DR but pass the break test.

Bottom of Turn 4 - Dwarfs

Image

His rangers do not score insane courage and keep running while my Dark Elves laugh at the sight of it. His firing squads wheel to face the new threat, and some long shots score a wound on my Warlocks which I fail to save. *grunt*

In Combat my Hag fluffs the attacks and it takes all I can get into the fight to kill that 1 miner in the back. The rest pretty much fluffs their attacks to the front doing only a couple of wounds total. But in return, his characters fluff their attacks as well. He does succeed in destroying the last Witch Elf, but the Cauldron of Blood (with Hag!) remains which passes the break test thanks to the Ld10 General, Whoop whoop.

In the Dark Rider vs Gyro battle, I lose 1 DR but pass the break test.


Top of Turn 5 - Dark Elves

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Revenge! I charge the hammerers from the rear with my executioners. My Warlocks and Peg Master ready up to threaten the Quarrelers. My reasoning is that I might lose one more unit but slaughter one unit in return.

Winds of magic doesn't fail this time but the Soulblight on the Gyro is stopped by my opponent (I think). The rest, I pour into the battle with the hammerers for the sake of it. It's all I can do anyhow.

Combat sees the one Dark Rider die to the Gyro but the Warlocks and Peg Master pass the panic test. It's unfortunate... I would have liked to score a tie just once, have my musician win the combat and so on, but nope. The Hammerers all die under the Draich. The Dwarven characters survive but are run down by the Cauldron of Blood and Death Hag. My Executioners reform to face the Quarrelers.

Bottom of Turn 5 - Dwarfs

Image

The Gyro does the bomb run on the Warlocks, rolling low and doing one wound. Unlucky him. The firing squads add in another 4 wounds, which I fluff entirely. Unlucky me.

That's it. For some reason, his gyro is in a position I can charge with my peg master. OR something.


Top of Turn 6 - Dark Elves

Image

My peg master charges the gyro and takes it out, overrunning into the Quarrelers.
Magic offers me a shot at a Black Horror and... Muaahah! I kill some Dwarfs. But not enough to score points.

Bottom of Turn 6 - Dwarfs

Image

Some pot shots at the Executioners are done, but nothing of importance. The fight with the peg master sees me take out the Quarrelers, I think but I'm not sure my memory is correct on that one.

Outcome is a small victory for the Dark Elves.


Post battle thoughts

What a slaughter, and a fun game it was. But it was also a tiring game. It's been a while since we both played regularly, so we were a bit rusty on some points and the game took a lot of time. It was my first encounter with the Dwarfs and I must say I really like how they turned out so far. The aggressive combat ability, the whole scouting and vanguard game pre battle... Yes! Thank all the lords and false gods too! YES YES YES! I find them so much more fun to play against now. It gives a whole new dimension to the game and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
The list I have is fun too: mobile, powerful, combat focused but still active in every round. I would have preferred a tad more shooting, but this should be fixed when I trade the shades for an RBT.

In the end, I won mostly because my list had a higher powerlevel than his list (or so the scouter said). There's also a lack of experience on my opponent's side with his Gyros and against the new Dark Elves. The same could be said about me though:
- I had a wrong view on his Gyros. They are better chaff killers than horde killers were I had guessed the opposite. This is a mistake on my end.. a lack of preparation. That said, a combo shot from 3 of these bad boys can still turn a large unit into rubble.
- I didn't use my peg master very well. My peg master did play a good threat game and avoided giving the Gyros full control. But that didn't prevent them from slipping through the gaps and doing their thing to an acceptable degree. I have to learn how to combat or counter such mobility. My Doombolts could have dealt with them, but that's just magic power and dice, not tactics. I should have been more aggressive on them with the Master and the Warlocks.
- My deployment doesn't impress me.. but it did save my Executioners. I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamed of the deployment. I feel I could have gotten more out of the list with a head-on deployment, but sometimes biding your time is a good thing to do. I think this won me the game, but it prevented a shot at a crushing victory.
- I did pick up easily on the Vanguard stage. My theorizing on this prepared me sufficiently. What took me off guard was the miners (grunt!) and the scouting Dwarfs. This is something I need to keep an eye out for! This requires thinking ahead.
- While I played tricks with my chaff, oversights and errors cost me some chaff units. This isn't the first time this happens, so it's a thing I need to work on.
- Ny Witch Elf unit didn't get enough support. Had I kept a unit of warlocks and a peg master there, I could have sabotaged the hammerers or blocked the miners. I was too focused on going out there to get the enemy. As a result, my opponent got the better of my Witch Elves.

I must admit that I felt my dice failed me quite a number of times but they weren't particularly sided. The charges and leadership tests worked out and my opponent's rolls were also sub par when it mattered, preventing him from cashing in on my poor rolls. It could have been a bigger win with a bit more pang here and there from the dice, but the impact of sub par rolls is still overshadowed by my mediocre tactical game.

Overall I feel like I failed to extract the power from this list but believe it or not... it leaves me with a happy feeling. It has been a while since I have felt backed up by an army list which is difficult with a T3 army. It shows me my weaknesses in my game quite well and still it offered me a fun game. So it was an exhilarating experience, and I'm both humbled and encouraged to learn from this when preparing for the next game.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Calisson »

Congrats, a win is a win.
He did not play well the gyros, the potential for breath attacks is huge and he hardly tapped it.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Amboadine »

Thanks for the write up and congratulations on the win.
Nice to see the learnings coming out from the battle.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Daeron »

Thank you both and yes..
- He does need to improve his gyrotechnics
- I do need to learn from this :D

The Dwarfs certainly have more mobility at the start. But once that's done, the highest mobility they have is from successful charges and flee moves. They only have scouts and miners to counter that, so after the first turns they are somewhat immobilized and we can position ourselves better.

But I discovered another flaw in his tactics that could have cost me dearly. Had he vanguarded his Hammerers first, I wouldn't have been able to block his vanguard the way I did. This is the power of combining a vanguard unit with a scouting unit. And it shows that I should have anticipated this and used my Shades to counter it.

The scary part is that I intend to replace the Shades with an RBT, leaving me without weapon against such a scout+vanguard combination.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Amboadine »

I guess the key part there, is already knowing you have that particular weakness and tailor your deployment accordingly.
How you do that is of course going to be situational to the table layout. At least it won't come as a surprise.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Gidean »

*tagged*

See below
Last edited by Gidean on Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by T.D. »

Thanks for the fine battle report, Daeron.

All that is missing is a fine Lambic beer to savour while reading it *needs icon*

I thought you played and deployed well. If you had placed your Execs on your left they might have been swiss cheese by the time of engagement. By weighting your army far away from his shooting you took a lot of the sting out of his list, which is especially important vs gunline type foes (even though he had no WM).

General thoughts: Dark Elf armies have a better tactical balance to them this AB thanks to 70 point Reapers.

Also: Can you keep spoilers out of the first paragraph and save them to the post-mortem? Makes for a more exciting read :P
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Daeron »

T.D. wrote:Also: Can you keep spoilers out of the first paragraph and save them to the post-mortem? Makes for a more exciting read :P


Done! And thank you all for the feedback.

Another little bugger detail I learned from Dwarfs is that the Gyros, as a unique troop type, aren't deployed simultaneously. This gives them a lot of deployment steps. On the bright side, considering our Warlocks and Peg Master are good counters, I don't oppose to them deploying them early on.
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by T.D. »

Daeron wrote:The scary part is that I intend to replace the Shades with an RBT, leaving me without weapon against such a scout+vanguard combination.


This is an interesting conundrum for sure. Shades add both offensive and defensive tactical flexibility, but they compete with points for so many other useful toolbox elements :|

I'll be interested to know of your experiences with or without Shades down the line...
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:Congrats, a win is a win.
He did not play well the gyros, the potential for breath attacks is huge and he hardly tapped it.



I agree with Calisson. He missed an opportunity. I would have deployed the two gyros without vanguard in a wingman formation so that they could have supported each other with overlapping breath templates. Sure, you got lucky on one template but do you think you could have weathered two of them? 8)
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Re: 2.4K Two Tower list vs Dwarfs Vanguard list

Post by Xaereth »

Awesome report! I'm just getting back into Fantasy after only having played about 5 games in the past 2.5 years (all in a row at the Adepticon GT a year ago, haha!), and these sort of battle reports are excellent for me to see how the new book works/doesn't work. So many new books have come out in that time, I see I have a lot to relearn :)
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