Redirecting charges

[Shockwave]

While playing a game yesterday vs a slanneshi army me and my opponent had multiple "debates" on what you could and could not do with a redirected charge.

The main rule in question is as follows.
Chronicles 2003 pg 132 the very first question on the page.

Q: Can i unit redirect a charge against an enemy unit that it could have originally charged?
A: No you can only redirect a charge against a unit if you could not have declared a charge against them normally, but can now do so due to the enemy fleeing

I thought this made it pretty definative. My opponent disagreed.

Basically what happen was his chaos knights declared a charge against my unit of dark riders, standing next to (and slightly behind)which was my lvl 4 sorceress. Naturaly i declared a flee response, he said then he would redirect to my sorceress, i said he couldn't because he could see her and thus could of declared at chrage at her, while the dark riders were next to her. He disagreed because to declare such a charge, he would of had to wheel and thus been out of charge range. I turned round and said "since when has being an inch out made a declared charge illegal?". So he let the point drop that was UNTILL

After moving his 7" forward he found out that on a straight charge and no need to wheel (because the riders where no longer there) he could reach her. I said he still couldn't do it because it was a failed charge to the riders not her. Unsure he reluctently drop it.

So my first question is: Who was right and who was wrong and why?
I ask because my knowlegde on fantasy's finer points is not that good.

On to point number two.

Later in the same game things were going bad for me, but i still could win if i could stop my corsairs getting flank charged by some chaos trolls. So to the rescue came the dark riders. I placed them so when the Trolls charged my riders and overran them (a sure thing i thought) they would do so no where near any of my other units. Simple Nah?

Ah, No.

My corsairs perform better than i expected and beat his lord causing him to flee. Which put my corsairs in a possition to be charged (i thought).
Basically his trolls could clearly see the corsairs (ie. the entire unit plus an inch or so behind). He delcared a charge to the dark riders. With the corsairs no longer behind them i declared a flee response (as you do). As i started to move my dark riders he declared a redirected charged to the corsairs. I again said no because the trolls could see them to start with. He said he couldn't of charged them to start woth because the gap between his chaos mage and my riders (through which the trolls would have to pass) was in fact to small for his troll to pass through. Thus couldn't charge them to start with and can now redirect to them. Unsure and cos he backed down last time i did this time. And let him flank charge the corsairs.

However this was only after me trying to explain that if he had of declared a charge to the corsairs yes he would of hit my dark riders of which they would have to of held. But the blank look on his face indicated he had no idea what i was on about.

So again my question is: Who (if anyone) was right/wrong.

What i think it boils down to was my opponent never facing fast cav being used semi compitently

Cheers on any thoughts.

P.S. i thought this might be STICKY but was unsure on what that mean't exactly.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

it is simple ( )

if he could possibly have declared a charge against the sorceress then he can't have redirected. so i think in that you were right.

the other i am not sure what you mean. could he have charged straight away to the corsairs? he said something about his troll not fitting. well if it wont fit in then he of course can't charge and is free to overrun into them

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

Situation #1 was played correctly

I don't understand Situation #2

[Surelian]

situation one was wrong...you can redirect against the sorceror.
the rules for charging state that you can declare a charge but it must be in line of charge arc and normally possible. just because he can see them doesnt mean he can charge them, he cant charge against them unless he can reasonably make the charge..

[Whaledawg]

U CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT redirect a charge to an enemy u could have delcared
a charge toward to begin with. The reason being that u would have to make your entire line flee for flee to be a viable charge reaction. That would make fast cav pretty useless.

If u cannot get into contact with an enemy u cannot decare a charge against them.
Whether he was blocked by troops, terrain or the hand of Mork is irrelevant.

So actualy u played both scenarios right

[Marauder]

You did end up playing both of those cases right.

About your first charge though... you were right in telling your opponent that the sorceress was a valid target to be charged initially (she was in line of site, and nothing would have obstructed him getting there). The point about her being out of range is kind of moot. If she is in range, then he could charge her if he liked, and if she was out of range then redirecting towards her is kind of silly (as you won't get into base-to-base anyways).

Poor corsairs though. They did all that work, only to be killed by Trolls. Did you make sure he rolled his stupidity? I hate when opponents forget stuff like that.

[Dark Alliance]

Again, regarding your first point, you played it dead right.

Regarding the second, if I understand you right, he had line of sight to the corsairs but there was not the room for the trolls to pass through if he had declared that charge rather than the dark riders, yes?

If that is the case, he is right. Line of sight is not enough if he physically could not pass through at that time.

[Dungeon_god]

it is simple ( )

if he could possibly have declared a charge against the sorceress then he can't have redirected. so i think in that you were right.

the other i am not sure what you mean. could he have charged straight away to the corsairs? he said something about his troll not fitting. well if it wont fit in then he of course can't charge and is free to overrun into them

but if he couldn't have seen the sorceress (because there were five models that were of the same rough size as her), then he could have then redirected his charge.

[Shockwave]

Ok lets see if this makes things a little clearer


Point 2:
i think this comes under accidentel charges not redirected. If he had of decleared a charge vs the corsairs. Because the trolls could not fit though the gap(it was 5mm to small, which is why no one spotted it until to let) with out first reducing their frontage they would come in to contact with the riders clipping them (thus the accidentel charge). So he could of declared the charge, but untill he did so we would not of known that they would not fit. but since that was after an otherwise valid charge declartion it was a valid charge, thus he could not of redircted to them because of the fleeing riders.

(I think i've just made it more complicated)
Don't hit me!!!

[Shockwave]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I knew this was gonna be difficult.

Right, HE could see her but because she was slightly behind the front line of riders, he would of had to wheel, that wheel is what put him out of range.
That was the end of it untill when moving his knights 7" forward for the failed charge, he found out he could reach her (he messured beyond the 7")because he didn't have to wheel around the riders( which were now behind her because of thier flee) so his argument was if he continued forward as if to follow the riders he would hit the sorceress.


Side note:
The cosairs lost the combat fled and then ralied with the trolls 2" behind them(now in front of them) the trolls did fail there stupid test and proceeded to amble 3" forward in to the corsais again, though only one of them got to attack cos they were stupid.

[Dark Alliance]

It's all a bit moot now, but I think from what you have now said, that, you played them both right

I think

[Keledron]

Situation 1 was played correctly

Situation 2
1. He had line of sight and therefore could legally declare the charge vs the Corsairs (and should have done so!) therfore he cannot redirect at them when the DR unit flees.

2. The model would not fit through the gap then it is a failed charge (see Gav's Chronicles article on moving large creatures past/over intervening units)

3. But as the gap was caused by one of your units they are then clipped and drawn into combat vs the chargers - no charge reaction permitted.

So as I read your initial post you got the logic of the situation right but applied it in correctly by charging the DR unit he could not attack the corsairs with the initial charge

K

[Shockwave]

So just so i've got this clear for when i see him next.

Point 1 was correctly done, no redirecting into the mage.
Cool my high sorceress survival was Legit.

Point 2
Because he could see the corsairs when he charged the riders, when they fled he couldn't redirect into the corsairs. As the rules state.
(ie. how i want to play it, but didn't for the sake of fairness because we were unsure)

But if he HAD declared the charge to the corsairs (which he could because he could see them) he would ended up in combat with the riders (because of the gap thing) Whom were not allowed to flee because the charge was accidentle.

I know it's a moot point. But i know i'll try to use the gap thing as a counter arguement.

Thank you everyone for your time.
Cheers.

[Dark Alliance]

Yes sir, your understanding of what we said is correct.

Ha ha! We got there in the end.