Staff of Sorcery and Null Talisman's

[Mordru]

Question: Does the +1 to dispel provided by the Staff of Sorcery apply to dice generated by null talisman(s) even if they are carried by other models in the army or is it just for pool dice that the sorceress uses?

Answer: I know what I think, I was hoping to see what the rest of you think about this.

[Silverheimdall]

Dispel is army-wide, not specific to a single wizard or anything, so yes its +1 to all dispel attempts.

[Grez90]

the staff adds plus 1 to the 'wizards' trying to dispel the spell, therefore you will always get the +1 aslong as the mage is on the table, even for magic resistance as you are still trying to dispel a spell

[Rork]

the staff adds plus 1 to the 'wizards' trying to dispel the spell, therefore you will always get the +1 aslong as the mage is on the table, even for magic resistance as you are still trying to dispel a spell

I'd say you're contradicting yourself a bit there. If you're using MR alone to dispel a spell, the wizard can't be playing a role...so I'd say you couldn't claim the bonus unless you were using at least one normal DD as well.

[Dggrj]

The wording does seem that way, Rork. How do you think it's handled for the HE using MR only, out of curiousity? I know their wording is something closer to "+1 to dispel attempts while a wizard is on the table," or something, so a little different, just curious of your thoughts.

[Masterofdarkness]

Rork following that logic only the dispel die that the sorcerer/ress contributes could be used for the +1. Since the other dice in the pool are the armies "natural resistance" not him actually dispelling

our book says straight up +1 to dispel

[Mordru]

The difference in the pool dice and the MR dice would be the sorceress is "using" the pool dice to attempt the dispel while (for example) a different wizard with 2 null shards would generate those additional dice only for spells that effect her/her unit. They would have no relation to the pool of dice at all.

High Elf mages, using high magic, gain the +1 to dispel as an innate ability but the issues remains if a high elf unit takes the banner of arcane warding for MR 2 and a dispel is attempted using only the MR2 dice from the banner.

[Dggrj]

The BRB says that all dispel dice are pooled and may be used by any wizard or even without a wizard, so Rork's logic wouldn't have that affect, fortunately, masterofdarkness. p106 - "Differently from power dice, all dispel dice are collected into the dispel pool and can freely be used by any of the Wizards in the army ..." So you can just always claim the wizard with the +1 dispel is the one doing the work, unless he's fleeing. It appears that wizards can even dispel while in combat - at least I found nothing against it.

The BRB also has the full rules for the Staff of Sorcery - "A wizard who has this benefits ... Whenever he dispels a spell, his dispel result is increased by 1." p122.

Indeed the situation I was wondering about Mordru. Has anyone added this (our version) to the FAQ question thread?

[Mordru]

The situation with the BRB rulebook staff of sorcery is what causes the issue. Clearly, if the wizard dies the effect goes with him but since the effect is unique to him via the staff how would it apply to MR dice generated by a totally separate item? This is the crux of the issue.

I don't find the p106 langauge to be helpful because MR dice are not in the pool. They don't even show up until someone casts a spell that triggers the MR. The MR dice can of course only be used against spells that target the unit with MR and can never be assigned to the pool for another purpose or held from turn to turn in an item.

That p106 language seems to state that unlike power dice, normally generated dispel dice are usable by the army as a whole and are not individual to the wizard. This seems to be really all it can be said to mean. Its a pickle. .

[Dggrj]

Right, sorry for the confusion Mordru, I was first answering masterofdarkness's concern, hence the p106 reference, that the staff will help all attempts using pool dice so long as the wizard with the staff isn't fleeing (in which case he's not even generating dice, IIRC).

As for the MR bit I still don't have an answer

[Mordru]

How about this to further complicate things.

If the player used one pool dispel die and added it to the MR dice we seem to have a strong argument that the staff would give +1 to the total attempt. Does that mean the inverse is then true? I think so.

[Dggrj]

Um, what's the inverse? Adding MR dice to pool dice? I see that as the same situation.
Or I'm horribly not understanding what you're saying right now...

[Masterofdarkness]

No i was countering the argument that the caster has to be involved in the dispel attempt. sigh this is why I don't like it when GW mixes fluff with rules(insert 5th ed reference here) High elves have +1 to all dispel attempts made if they have a mage in the army. In our army book it just says +1 to dispel attempts. This is just making it overly complicated in my opinion. I never take it but I would say it affects all dispel attempts.

[Mordru]

Unfortunately it says it effects all dispel attempts attempted by the mage. It seems clear that GW did not consider this issue when writing the dispel rules and the rules for the staff. You are correct it very rarely would come up because most armies either 1) don't have access to lots of different sources of MR; or 2) don't have mages that can take the staff.

It seems to be a pretty clear case of GW strikes again. I don't see the harm to the game in playing that it always provides the bonus after all it is a pricey arcane item @ 35 pts.

[Masterofdarkness]

and in the army books it makes no such distinction

[Dggrj]

@masterofdarkness: The Common Magic Items get their full description from the BRB, the only thing that matters about them in the AB is the points cost. The one-line rules summary is just that, a reminder of what item it is, not its official rules set.

[Mordru]

MoD, dggrj actually quoted the pertinent language on the staff of sorcery from the BRB a few posts up. GW issues rules that refer to the wizard when "he" attempts to dispel a spell.
Additionally, the BRB rules for MR on page 95 state that MR dice may either be usd "on their own" or in combination with dispel dice "from wizards or other sources" indicating that they are never part of the pool of dispel dice.

GW should have said an could have said, Staff of Sorcery provides a +1 to the dispel roll of any dispel attempt made by the the wizard's side but they did not. GW could have said dispel dice generated my a units MR are immediately added to the pool of dispel dice when a spell targets them but again they did not.

We are left with a situation where a wizard buys an arcane item that provides a bonus to do something that in the rules the wizard never actually does when MR dice are the only dice used. It is an odd and ungainly situation created by the way GW have penned the rules.

Once again I have no problem with the staff providing the benefit but I'm not sure that is what the rules permit and I certainly cannot see that they dictate that the bonus applies.

[Mordru]

I think this language may have some bearing to help resolve this issue in favor of the staff's bonus applying.

BRB pg 109 continued from pg 108
"Some magic items may allow a Wizard a second dispel attempt, or a re-roll, but these are exceptions and in normal circumstances only one attempt can be made to dispel a spell. In addition the result can be increased further by the use of magic items. Any number of magic items can be combined to boost the score, but the player must declare that he is using any magic items before he makes the dispel dice roll."

I poated this question on other fori and the consesus appears to rely on this additional language particularly the last full sentence.

[Silverheimdall]

Its simple.
All your dispel attempts, regardless of who is doing the dispel, are at +1.. even if its only MR Dice. No rule supports the other way of "MR dice don't get the +1"

[Mordru]

Its a wonderful thing how simple things become once the answer is known. !wink!