Witch Elves

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Dread_knight666
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Witch Elves

Post by Dread_knight666 »

I am just wondering if many people are using witch elves in their lists. It seems like they are not a very popular choice, yet many people are using the COB. I think from a fluff perspective having a cauldron of blood and no khainite units is ridiculous, but I personally don't put to much emphasis on fluff anyway.

I know witches are notoriously vulnerable to shooting and magic, but they are ten points and immune to psychology. Not to mention they are easy enough to screen with harpies, witch actually works out great since it can block line of sight both ways.

I have also found poison and hatred compliment each ability very well, and it has worked good on an assassin. The idea of having a whole unit of witches with poison and hatred seems disturbingly powerful, even against more armoured foes. The witch brew is the icing on the cake IMO, it gives them a distinct edge to winning combat and keeping frenzy. I think a warbanner would compliment a unit of witches nicely too, just in case. Although maybe it is best to run a unit bare, so if they do get shot down you don't loose a heap of points.

Just wondering why so many seem reluctant to use witch elves. The advantages seem to out weigh the disadvantages to me, especially since the disadvantages seem relatively easy to counter.
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Post by Rebmonk »

While they are good, I feel they will only find a spot against horde armies (Orcs and Empire).

There are probably two reasons we don't see them.

1) All of our special choices are just soooo good. They are fighting for a tough spot with CoK, CoC, Blackguard, Shades, and Executioners. Considering they can get chewed up easily without a screen whereas the other choices have some armor.

2) The corsairs can pretty much do the same thing. Granted they aren't as offensive as the witchelves, they do get armor and sea dragon cloaks, and can get the frenzy banner. And these guys don't take up specials.

I love the witches, but i want to play with my blackguard and Cold ones for now.
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- human
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Post by - human »

My current list is a naggarond city army, so I haven't included any khainites. However, I am planing on making a har ganeth khaine army, and I plan on taking a LOT of witch elves.

They simply look fantastic. They were decent last edition, but at 10 points?! To me that's a downright bargain, especially with the COB.

I think that most of our army's choices have received a decent boost, so the price drop of the witchelves doesn't seem as great. But I certainly agree that their advantages definitely outweigh the disadvantages.
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Hali
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Post by Hali »

I never used to take Witch Elves in my army, but my more recent lists have included them.

My Army was always very Infantry based, and i don't take any magic within my lists. With the new army book, i've natrually adapted it to be more Khainite in order to maximise on combat potential and the Witch Elves have been impressive to say the least. However the only reaon i find them worth while is because the list is now Khainite and the Cauldron of Blood makes them a more viable option, otheriwse the Corsairs are a fantastic option for a similar price range, and they're more rounded as a unit, the give up the sheer attack power in numbers for decent survivability.

I personally couldn't justify taking Witch Elves without fielding a Cauldron, but other people think otherwise.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Just wondering why so many seem reluctant to use witch elves. The advantages seem to out weigh the disadvantages to me, especially since the disadvantages seem relatively easy to counter.

Because they don't have armor. But I do use WE and I love them, just screen the ladies with two units of 5 harpies, that gets rid of the drawbacks of frenzy and simultaneously they cannot be shot any more. Once in combat they slice most things apart.

1) All of our special choices are just soooo good. They are fighting for a tough spot with CoK, CoC, Blackguard, Shades, and Executioners. Considering they can get chewed up easily without a screen whereas the other choices have some armor.

But then again - only CoK have armor which we can rely on (and chariots of course) all the other choices should not be exposed to enemy shooting anyway, so whether they have armor or not does not make much of a difference seeing as they will still get torn apart by the amount of S4 shots out there anyway. You have to screen them, so you might as well not have armor at all.

2) The corsairs can pretty much do the same thing. Granted they aren't as offensive as the witchelves, they do get armor and sea dragon cloaks, and can get the frenzy banner. And these guys don't take up specials.

Corsairs can do pretty much the same job, only they cannot get AP attacks and frenzy and they don't have poison. Witchies can be core units as well, just take hellebron ;)

Even against armor witch elves have a decent chance with the banner of murder (as long as the AS of said unit is not 1+ or better). The sheer volume of attacks is sure to down something, and my witch elf unit has an assassin in it anway - he can deal with the armored stuff.

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Dalamar
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Post by Dalamar »

I'm planning to use witches exclusively in witch army... which means Hellebron and Core witches :D and plenty of harpies, loads of harpies and more harpies! (to screen the witches of course)
I'm thinking of something along the lines of 20 units of 5? that would be half the army :P
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Mr. anderson
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Post by Mr. anderson »

ONE HUNDRED WITCHES charging down the battlefield chanting Khaine's name.


As they get run down by scores of knights :lol:

It would be a very characterful army indeed, however I think you'd need some more stuff in that army... maybe some shades (which you could use as zealots of Khaine) and a cauldron. But I'd love to see that army lined up on the table. It'd look quite scary. In fact - you've made me want to try this... when I have a job and enough money to do so, that is :lol:

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Post by Dread_knight666 »

But then again - only CoK have armor which we can rely on (and chariots of course) all the other choices should not be exposed to enemy shooting anyway, so whether they have armor or not does not make much of a difference seeing as they will still get torn apart by the amount of S4 shots out there anyway. You have to screen them, so you might as well not have armor at all.


I second this, a 5+ save isn't that good and it can be turned into no save rather easily. Isn't this the reason no one gives shades light armour? I have found harpy screens invaluable with the DE army, especially for protecting our soft vulnerable troops.(almost everything)

2) The corsairs can pretty much do the same thing. Granted they aren't as offensive as the witchelves, they do get armor and sea dragon cloaks, and can get the frenzy banner. And these guys don't take up specials.


I don't necessarily agree with this, although corsairs are defiantly a worthwhile option and they have their distinct advantages, the witches have quite a hard edge against them in CC. Poison for example makes them more viable against high T models. They also don't need a banner to gain frenzy, witch frees up points and allows them to take another banner. These are the two fundamental reasons why witches can overpower corsairs easily and for less points, which makes them an equally valuable alternative IMO.

I plan on running a block of 18 witches and 18 corsairs in my list. With the cauldron I can grant the witches a 5+ ward save whenever I feel it necessary. Although this isn't as good as the corsairs As, against S4 shooting attacks they will be on equal footing, but against handguns the witches will have an advantage. This doesn't make up for armour obviously, but it temporarily take away almost any advantage the corsairs have over witches.
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Post by Bounce »

I love my Witches but have been fairly disappointed with them recently as they often just get slaughtered.

With the new book dropping them by 3 points each though I think they can be worthwhile even if they do take up a special slot.
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Post by Izirath »

Excellent idea Dalamar! I will have to proxy my army some game and try it out. It should include: Hellebron, about 80 WE, one Cauldron, 2-4 Assasin, a Death Hag bsb with a cool magic banner. I'll sketch a list later.
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Post by Lac.desariel »

I run 36 witch elfs in my Khaine list (3 units of 12) they work well and kill vargulfs with ease the sheer weight of attack they throw out is great combined with KB from COB all is good
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Dalamar
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Post by Dalamar »

Nah, not run down, those knights would kill a unit, get stuck in second unit and then get swarmed by another three!
Remember 5 witches are cheaper than 5 harpies!
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Mr. anderson
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Dalamar wrote:Nah, not run down, those knights would kill a unit, get stuck in second unit and then get swarmed by another three!
Remember 5 witches are cheaper than 5 harpies!


But once you have swarmed these knights there will be other stuff coming across the battlefield as well... and by swarming chosen chaos knights of khorne or knights of the blood keep you are actually only doing them a favour...
I just think you would need something in that army to deal with the bigger things - something like shades, knights or executioners. Executioners are of course best (and you could have an entire army made of khainite units... how good is that). But you also need some magical protection. I would take a noble with the ring of hotek and a great weapon and stick him into a unit of shades with great weapons, positioned in the middle of your battle line, next to the cauldron. That way most of your army will be protected from magic to an extent and most of them are stubborn as well... I'd like to see heavy cavalry attempt charging through that :twisted:
They'd get stuck in 20 witch elves, only to be counter charged by a unit of 10 shades with GW and 2 attacks each (and hatred... and a noble)... what a blood bath. Khaine is going to love you for it.

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Post by Mr. tibbs »

dread_knight666 wrote:I plan on running a block of 18 witches and 18 corsairs in my list. With the cauldron I can grant the witches a 5+ ward save whenever I feel it necessary.


I do the same thing, but minus the CoB. I find it's an incredibly effective combination.

If the other guy wants to shoot at/magic the Witch Elves, that's fine by me! All they need is 5 or 6 models when they get to combat and that's enough to handle just about any infantry unit in the game. So I let the other player distract himself (Within reason!) with the WEs and it saves my Black Guard and Corsairs.

I always liked the WEs last edition, and this edition they're even better: cost less points, Banner of Murder is tailor-made for them, and the lower weapon skill is kind of an advantage in that they get more chances to roll sixes and auto-wound.
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Post by Silverheimdall »

I prefer Frenzied corsairs with Cauldron of Blood support and ASF Executioners than Witch Elves, at 2000 pts.
If played higher points game where I could feel the Crone, then I'd probably have witch elves.
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Post by Dannyisevil »

SilverHeimdall wrote:I prefer Frenzied corsairs with Cauldron of Blood support and ASF Executioners than Witch Elves, at 2000 pts.
If played higher points game where I could feel the Crone, then I'd probably have witch elves.


Frenzied Corsairs means that your unit must take a standard.
Witch elves can take no stardard and have the frenzy already.

Corsairs seems almost the same as witch elfs.
Each unit have his Pro and Cons.

Corsairs are Core and have armour and Witch elves frenzy + poisoned attacks + 1I higher.

Poisoned attacks can be very good or less good.
The Cauldron of blood can give killingblow on the witch elf unit and poisoned wounds means less % on killing blow wounds.
On the other hand if you give a witch elfs unit the Banner of Murder, it gives manny armour piering wounds.
The hatred and poisoned attacks is a good combo.
Frenzy makes the witch elfs bit risky.
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Post by Crazyhorse »

I always take at least one unit. What is more fun than to flank with frenzied women? Plus, if you give them an assassin they can kill pretty much anything. One just has to be aware of them and that they need protection, once that is done they are nasty.

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Post by Diederikiii »

I use them and I like them, Altough they won't hold on alone (stupid non-save) I just love the opponets face when I tell them how many attacks there are :D.

so 3+1(hydra banner)+1(maybe the blessing but probebly the 5+ wardsave)+rune of khain on my Death hag+ Armour piercing banner.


So this unit is wel protected and will only stay 1 round alone at max.
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Post by Bastafa »

I'm just starting my DE army and I'm looking into Witches. Saw this thread so I decided not to make a new one. I love the models and the idea of half naked women that rock combat. What would be the most effective way to field the most of them, without sacrificing too much on the competitiveness side?
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Post by Scipio »

running them with Banner of Murder was impressive. Lots of Poison attacks w/ -1 to save armor = pain.

I also don't mind them getting shot at when thye do but can minimize this with Chillwind.
Anyone else find it kinda interesting that DE will not use gun powder because its unreliable but seem to have no problem using cold ones?
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Post by Dread_knight666 »

Even if witch elves do get shot at, like mr. tibbs said they only really need 5 - 6 models to get into combat. A large unit like 18 for example could soak up alot of shooting before they were totally obliterated, but with harpies screens it should be relatively easy to keep most of the unit intact until they get into combat. Having said that you can almost look at witch elves as a way to distract enemy shooting, especially since they won't panic and they don't need great numbers to win combat.

An all witch elf army would be pretty sick. I would run three big blocks with assassins in each and have mass harpy screens. It's simple but effective. The units are big enough to handle tones of shooting and with witch brew and an assassin you can pretty much not give a care from witch direction your opponent attacks. I really like that they gave DE the ability to field an army like this, even if you have to take a cheese ball special character.

I am trying to plan out a khainite slave raider list but I have hit a snag. As much as I like witch elves I am not sure I should take a block if I am taking a block of corsairs witch are similar. It just seems too redundant in a 2000 pt list. I think executioners would probably be more appropriate, since they can fill a different role. But I am not to keen on the idea of eating a character slot just to give the exec's ASF. Now I am thinking of sticking an Assassin in the unit and tooling him up with the touch of death, rune of khaine and black lotus. With that build he should be capable of wiping out the front rank of most enemy units. I am still not totally sold on this idea though.
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Post by Matricide »

Well.. as people says, Corsairs can be be just as effective as WE- when they're tooled up. So if a lot of killing blow-hits is sought, corsairs w/Sea serpent would be great. But then, as said, WE always have frenzy and with the banner of murder plus a Hag with rune of Khaine or manbane a unit of just around 10 models costing under 150 pts could lash out either 12 S3 + 4 Manbane attacks on the charge, or 17-19 S3 attacks.. and that's with both poison, hatred and AP.

Please tell me what HE infantry would hold ground against that attack. :twisted:

Yes, a Witch elf/Executioner/Harpy-army would be awesome.
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Post by Bounce »

The main problem is the High Elf infantry go first.

Swordmasters- 11 attacks,7.33 hits, 6.11 Dead Witches

White Lions/ Phoenix Guard- 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3.33 Dead Witches

Spearelves- 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2.67 dead witches

Against Swordmasters you won't even attack back. Against White Lions or phoenix Guard you will get 2 Witches assuming the HE kill the Hag. You will still probably lose the combat here. So generally HE are not a good opponent for witches at all! Unless you take the ASF banner. Then you can butcher them.
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Post by Iskiab »

I'm planning on making a Khanite themed army and I love witch elves!

I can see the downside of though, but I think if you build your army around using witch elves and around protecting them, they're fantastic.

One thing about WE vs Corsairs....

I don't think a 5+ armor save is that much to write home about. If you fight anything with 5 str or higher, the Corsairs are just as vulnerable to witch elves. Even against 4 str, Corsairs only have 6+.

Where Corsairs are better is vs misslefire with their cloaks. Vs misslefire Corsairs are hands down better.

The real worry with Witch Elves is ASF and cavalry. You can counter misslefire with missle screens, 3 ranks keep of spears can be devastating to a unit of witch elves.

I guess my point is I think if you have a ton of witch elves a banner of ASF might be necessary. Then you'd have one unit that could take out an all cavalry army.
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Post by Cailil »

I love my witch elves. The minis are great, they really add character to the collection and they're a lot of fun to use... but they always get nerfed by turn 3.

Almost naked elf ladies who will charge anything close them are going to die - even if they kill hundreds of Gobbos (whom they are really effective against) they'll just get shot to pieces or bump into something with an armour save.

That said WEs and Sorcoresses are what made me decide to collect the Druchii 6 years ago. But over time (and especially with the new list) I've been coming to terms with the fact that BG are better than WEs (or Execs for that matter). And I'm struggling to find a reason to field them at 2K or less.

A Hellebron themed army would be my only reason to field them in a competitive game. (Lucklily I'm planning a Helebron army - just for fun)
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