Black Dragon Lord in 8th

Amnar · Post by **Amnar** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:08 pm

Hey guys, I'm currently building my black dragon lord, and my current dilemma is whether to arm him with a lance or sword. In 7th I would have given him a lance of some sort, but with multiple round combats becomming the norm, am I better off with a magic sword (or crimson death or whatever)

Any advice on loadouts? I like to keep my models as close to wysiwyg as possible.

Cheers

Drek · Post by **Drek** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:42 pm

Honestly, I'm not sure there's much of a place for them in 8th. Which is a shame, because I have a brilliant model. I have always used Crimson Death and it's worked great, and if you decide to use one in 8th, I think CD will be even more valuable now.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:11 pm

I think there's plenty of place for a Black Dragon Lord.

-Leadership tests are useful for a variety of things, including movement reforms and repeater Fear tests, so having mobile Leadership 10 will help your battle line.
-Breath weapons can be used in close combat, making for tremendous hitting power.
-Crush Attacks.
-Combats will last for multiple turns, so the loss of Hatred for the Dragon isn't a huge disadvantage since he wouldn't have Hatred for most drawn-out fights anyway.

You will have to plan to keep the dragon supported, since he won't be able to front-charge weak regiments or flank charge for an easy win. However, he's still just as useful at generating kills and attacking monsters and chariots, which is where he'll really shine in 8th edition.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:02 pm

Drek wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure there's much of a place for them in 8th. Which is a shame, because I have a brilliant model. I have always used Crimson Death and it's worked great, and if you decide to use one in 8th, I think CD will be even more valuable now.

There are some great new weapons included in the magic items. +3 str and +3 attack swords. See which fits your model best, but CD is still a very cheap S-6 weapon if you don't need a shield.

Amnar · Post by **Amnar** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:15 pm

So the verdict is that lance is definitely out correct? It's a shame, I think the lance looks best.. Maybe I'll just strap a large sword to his back..

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:25 pm

Magic weapons don't have to look like their name... so you Sword of smashyness can look like a lance if you prefer. (Solves the problem of how the heck the guy can hit anything with a sword from way up there).

Amnar · Post by **Amnar** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:09 pm

Agreed, but I can be a bit anal with my conversions. Damned miniature OCD...

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:54 am

I think there's plenty of place for a Black Dragon Lord.

-Leadership tests are useful for a variety of things, including movement reforms and repeater Fear tests, so having mobile Leadership 10 will help your battle line.
-Breath weapons can be used in close combat, making for tremendous hitting power.
-Crush Attacks.
-Combats will last for multiple turns, so the loss of Hatred for the Dragon isn't a huge disadvantage since he wouldn't have Hatred for most drawn-out fights anyway.

You will have to plan to keep the dragon supported, since he won't be able to front-charge weak regiments or flank charge for an easy win. However, he's still just as useful at generating kills and attacking monsters and chariots, which is where he'll really shine in 8th edition.

Well said, I still plan on using a dragonlord with CD AoES & PoK
It's awsome. But Tethlis please explain as I don't understand why we can't flank charge for an easy win.

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:13 am

Because for as long as the charged unit has more ranks than you do (which is easy against a dragon that has no rank) they are stalwart, meaning they take their break tests on their or their general's unmodified Ld. The dragon will get bogged down and forced to wipe them all out instead of killing a handful and running down the rest.

Masterofdarkness · Post by **Masterofdarkness** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:55 am

Also because he no longer negates ranks in the flanks

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:12 am

OK so what if anything do you get with a flank attack now?
Nothing at all?

Masked jackal · Post by **Masked jackal** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:22 am

Nellamik wrote:OK so what if anything do you get with a flank attack now?
Nothing at all?

Less return attacks, you can only get support attacks to the front.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:02 pm

Indeed, flank attacks are not really about negating ranks anymore, but are actually just more space for you to get killing models into base contact. Most of our old flankers (Black Dragon, Cold One Knights, Hydra) will still like flank charges, because it generally means fewer return attacks against them and allows them to help kill off rank-and-file models while our ranked-up spearmen fight the enemy to the front. Fights will be less concerned about stacking combat resolution, and more concerned about killing off enemy models quickly to gain a strong rank advantage and negate their Stubborn. That's one capacity where the dragon is useful; the ability to kill off 1 or 2 ranks in one round of combat can really swing a fight in favor of our spearmen, while the dragon is also contributing Terror advantages, Leadership 10, as well as a lethal breath weapon when it's needed most.

I think it will be important for Dark Elves to have a very quick shock approach when fighting many armies, especially hordes that will easily outnumber us. By running a Hydra/chariot/Dragonlord in conjunction with a good-sized Spearmen unit, we can hopefully eliminate an enemy block or two before we become swarmed by cheaper regiments. I think the Black Dragon will really suit that sort of quick playstyle, and will also do well against other elite armies.

Yourmumrang · Post by **Yourmumrang** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:08 pm

You know what Teth I like this thinking a lot. A lot more fun than playing keep-away. I may yet include a Dragon in my army.

Amnar · Post by **Amnar** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:04 pm

Agreed, that's why I'm building mine. I never did the whole monster mash thing in 7th, never even had my hydra painted in time, but I'll be trying that in 8th for sure. Black dragon and a single hydra shouldn't be overkill in 2,250...

Yourmumrang · Post by **Yourmumrang** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:59 am

Sod that! I'm taking a Dragon and 2!

Drek · Post by **Drek** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:40 pm

You've certainly made me rethink the Dragon Lord. The way to win seems to be getting ranks in the front and wounds in the flank, and a Dragon Lord will be very good for the wounds part. Then again, a Dreadlord on a DP could very well deliver enough wounds to turn the tide at a fraction of the points. However, does the Stepping Up rule count to the flanks as well? If so, that would make the DP a much less viable option.

PS: Your mum rang.

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:29 pm

There is no stepping up rule. It's been dead for quite a while.

The rule is supporting attacks and it only works in the front.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:16 pm

I mentioned this in another thread, but there are a few Black Dragon threads so I figure I'd mention it here: I like the idea of a dragon requiring a lot more strategy to utilize, rather than simply breaking things with frontal charges or torching regiments with Noxious Breath. Since a Core regiment can effectively neutralize a dragon for half the game, and it will be more difficult to hide with the new Line-of-Sight rules, my hope is that dragons will become a more balanced and reasonable choice.

I'm glad that my thoughts on the Dragon Lord are resonating with other players. Its role will definitely change in 8th edition, and I think it will be a strong challenge to fully utilize, but entirely worthwhile.

Assassination nation · Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:02 am

So just for clarification, the dragon will get impact hits, then can fire its breath in cc and still attack with its regular attacks or is it either breath weapon or regular attacks in combat? Either way he will be producing alot of damage

Fr0 · Post by **Fr0** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:28 pm

You should actually drill a hole in his armpit and put an a small earth magnet so you can change it.

Killerk · Post by **Killerk** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:43 pm

killing a dragon will be much easier now since virtually all war machines deal d6 wounds, especially thoes cheep bolt throwers. I've heard that there is no more +1 to hit large target's, Has this been confirmed? (still waiting for my book)

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:39 pm

I can confirm that.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:12 pm

Assassination Nation wrote:So just for clarification, the dragon will get impact hits, then can fire its breath in cc and still attack with its regular attacks or is it either breath weapon or regular attacks in combat? Either way he will be producing alot of damage

My reading is yes to all. So 2xD6 breath attacks, normal attacks and then thunderstomp.

Eolelfslayer · Post by **Eolelfslayer** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:01 pm

Rabidnid wrote:
Assassination Nation wrote:So just for clarification, the dragon will get impact hits, then can fire its breath in cc and still attack with its regular attacks or is it either breath weapon or regular attacks in combat? Either way he will be producing alot of damage

My reading is yes to all. So 2xD6 breath attacks, normal attacks and then thunderstomp.

I think that's correct.
Only problem is warmachine attacks can now kill ANY mount fairly easily, and while your dreadlord could well survive if you give him som kind of ward and other save, he'll be on his own frothen on. I still think a humble cold one is a much safer bet. A shame we dont get barded steeds any longer.