Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrine

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Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrine

Post by Scyloc »

Introduction:
When I first saw the Bloodwrack Shrine, and it's weak shooting attack from the Medusa on top, I was very disappointed, to the point of dismissing it all together as a unit that would never see use in competitive settings.
However after some time, I have come to the conclusion, that I need to examine the Shrine more closely. Hence this thread.

What is it?
First of all, it was important for me to manage my own expectations. This is not an Ironblaster or a Skillcannon. Tbh its "shooting" attack is of little importance, when evaluating the model.
But if it's not an über ranged damage dealer, what is it then?
It is first and foremost a CHARIOT (with several additional uses).
The Bloodwrack Shrine is much more comparable to a Cold One Chariot or for instance a Gorebeast Chariot, than it is to Ironblasters and even Cauldrons of Blood .
So I will compare it to a Cold One Chariot, since that is imo its direct competition to get into a DE list.

Cost:
CO Chariot 115 ppm
Shrine 175 ppm (+52% more expensive)

Defensive stats:
CO Chariot T5, W4, 3+ armor save
Bloodwrack Shrine T6, W5, 6+ armor save
If we look at the std # of attacks needed to kill the models, you get this chart:
Image
As you can see, the chariot is more survivable vs S3 attacks due to its armor save, but the shrine pulls ahead vs S4 attacks and above. Keep in mind that the Shrine is also 50% more expensive, so in general the CO Chariot is more durable compared to cost (except vs S7 attacks).
For comparison reasons, It can be said that the Bloodwrack Shrine is in many cases +25% more durable that the CO Chariot.

Offensive Stats (Charge):
Notes: Both have d6+1 S5 impact hits on the charge. Bloodwrack Shrine has a slightly larger frontage.
CO Chariot: 4 WS3 S4 attacks + 2 ASF MP WS5 S5 attacks.
Shrine: 2 ASF MP WS4 S4 attacks + 3 ASF MP WS5 S5 attacks + any models in BtB test I or suffer S4 (no as) hit. The Avert Your Gaze BtB attack varies in strength depending on opponents. Vs I1 zombies it will often add 4 S4 hits, vs I3 Empire knights, it will often add 2 S4 (no as) hits, vs I5 elves it will often add 1 S4 hit.
All in all, the Bloodwrack Shrine is stronger on the charge and especially in grind.
Image
So far the Co Chariot and the Bloodwrack Shrine come out pretty close to each other.
The Shrine is better offensively in most circumstances, mostly around +20-90%, depending on your opponent. It may or may not be enough to overcome the +50% cost increase.

Movement:
CO Chariot M7 swiftstride, NO march.
Shrine M5 swiftstride, CAN march.
CO Chariot is a better charger, Shrine is more maneuverable.

Psychology:
CO Chariots cause fear, but also suffers from stupidity.
Chariots cause terror, and buffs friendly units LD by +1 within 6", and debuffs enemy LD by 1. A great boon, when there is a reasonable chance to win first round of combat due to impact hits. Further enhances terror. And synergizes well with many spells and abilities.
Buffing friendly units LD by +1, is also a great ability as many DE elites have LD9. CO Chariots, CO Knights, BG, Executioners etc. This gives the DE general more freedom, and you can have LD10 across the army.

Shooting:
2 Repeater crossbows vs Bloodwrack Stare.
Difficult to compare. Stare has higher potential, especially vs low I and high armored units, but Crossbows are universally more applicable.

Unique differences:
Bloodwrack Shrine can join units, which can be a very powerful ability. Firstly it displaces 15 infantry models, so in a pinch it can be used to join a small to medium unit to add 3 ranks, if you are in need of breaking steadfast. The shrine is also much more durable than standard elves, so if you need to receive a charge, the shrine can join a unit to make it significantly more tough, and in many causes, the unit can win on SCR due to the low # of wounds it will sustain.
Furthermore this means, that Shrine can be protected from BS shooting. Especially those pesky poison shots, which even though the CO Chariot has a 3+ armor save against, still hurts.
Shrines also provides MR1 to itself, and any unit it joins.

Uses:
CO Chariots are a specialized shock troop support unit, which due to its relatively long charge range can threaten a large area. It is a solid chaff remover, and can add some punch on the charge. Great for combo-charging. It is also surprisingly durable. However we all dread that failed stupidity test, which always happens at the worst of times.

Shrines perform various duties, which is its strength and also its weakness. It can perform the same function as a CO Chariot, however its threat range is 2" shorter, and will have trouble facing off against faster enemy units, where the CO Chariot can still compete. However the shrine moves 10" in the remaining moves phase, where the CO Chariot usually falls behind. So it's easier to get the shrine to where you need it, and it will not fall behind your infantry units. When it gets the charge, it hits harder than the CO Chariot, and can even make the enemy flee outright due to terror, and is also more likely to break an enemy due to the -1 LD debuff it applies.

Shrine allows you much more freedom with your general due to buffing friendly models with +1 LD. This could be supporting your infantry center of Executioners, while you general is off on monster hunting / flanking duty with CO Knights or on a pegasus for instance.

Shrine is also a great babysitter of shades. It provides +1 LD in hard to reach places, and can really use the shades mobility to get some value out of its weak shooting attack. When close and able to flank the enemy, the shrine can also add -1 LD to the panic tests from the shooting shades. Furthermore 8 GW shades with a bloodwrack shrine is a substantial flanking threat. On the negative side, shades with a shrine in it, just seem wrong on so many levels.

Shrine is a strong backfield protector. If you go for an "old fashioned" spearmen/swordsmen/corsair bunker for your sacrificial dagger Supreme Sorceress. The Bloodwrack Shrine synergizes well as a protector. It adds the valuable +1 LD to your SS (general), without having to take +1LD banner. It can add MR1 to the unit, and It has a substantial threat range to keep away small to medium units. If need be, it can join the Supreme Sorceress' unit to push her to the 2nd rank and keep her safe from close combat. Furthermore it significantly reduces the # of models hit when/if she miscasts.
(small template) In corner: 7 + mage / In 2nd rank, Shrine: 3 + Shrine + mage
(large template) In corner: 13 + mage / In 2nd rank, Shrine: 6 + shrine + mage
Lastly but in no way least. It actually makes the SS unit into a reasonably tough anvil, which can actually break many enemies with SCR, or at least hold them up for additional turns to allow for time to get your other units to assist.

All in all, the Bloodwrack Shrine can be considered a better, more expensive Chariot, with several additional benefits. Is it enough to warrent a place in many DE lists? Let us see, but the Bloodwrack Shrine is not as far from competitive lists as I initially thought.

Abstract:
• Shrine should be considered an alternative to CO Chariots, with additional uses.
• Obviously it is vulnerable to cannons, as are any chariots. And if you plan on bringing it, you should think on warmachine hunting and target saturation.
• Compared to a CO Chariot its +50% more expensive, and roughly adds 20-30% durability and offensive capability (this varies quite a lot depending on matchup.)
• Bloodwrack Shrine It is less reliably to get the charge, but more maneuverable and does not suffer from stupidity.
• So far a stronger Chariot, but too expensive to justify its cost.
• The question remains, if its ability to join units, and buff nearby friendly units with +1LD and debuffs enemies with -1 LD is enough to justify its cost.
• I believe it is a very strong backfield protector, with strong shocktroop value, much stronger than I initially thought. Is it the end all be all of units: Absolutely not. Is it viable? Certainly. I would but it on par of slightly ahead of the CO Chariot, with a strong niche as best backfield protector.

Edit: A shoutout to The Bad Dice podcast who did a series on the Bloodwrack Shrine, here. Check it out, it is an interesting discussion about the Bloodwrack Shrine.
Good points from BDD: A bunker unit with a lv4 with dagger is a good fit for it, as it will retain a reasonable SCR from just a few models. So you can stab more models and retain SCR. Its also interesting if you give a unit the flaming banner, as the impact hits, will be flaming for nullifying regen before your normal models strike. Many others, check out the podcast.
Last edited by Scyloc on Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Setomidor »

Very nice write up, well done! I think the main use of the Shrine will be to act as a nice, visual centerpiece in the army :)

I mentioned this in another thread as well, and I think the Bloodwrack Shrine could be quite a boost for Sisters of Slaughter. 10 Sisters and the Bloodwrack Shrine means that your unit has 5 ranks to break steadfast while removing the CR from ranks from the enemy. Not saying this is extremely good, but not extremely bad either!

As discussed in other threads, it's also unclear whether or not the Shrine and Cauldron is allowed to join Shades, as mounted characters are not allowed to do that. Technically, I guess the Shrine would be allowed but not the Cauldron (because the DH is definitely a mounted character), but it feels strange. :)
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Ragian Cain »

Top write up, I love this sort of discussion & investigation on D.net.

Will use this research to see if I can convince myself to add one to my lists.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Scyloc »

Yes, i agree with your Setomidir. I mentioned that combo, on the release day as well, in the Sisters of slaughter / best matchups thread.
However, i havnt included that comment here, simply because i wouldnt currently consider Sisters part of many DE armies.

The other question, is that the sisters are allready very durable with their 4+ ward save, so they do not benefit as much from the Shrine as other squishier elves do.
But still its important to note, so thank you for that.

Shrine should have no trouble joining shades, CoB is debatable. Personally I am in the camp, where CoB can join shade units, but why would you want to?
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Calisson »

Great analysis!
I hope it will incite to explore more this new tool.

With CO Chariot 115 ppm and Shrine 175 ppm, it might be fair to compare 3 COC to 2 shrines, at same cost (345 or 350 pts).

Defensive stats:
It takes the same S3 attacks to destroy 1 COC or 2 shrines. Avoid S3 attacks with shrines!
For S4-S5 attacks, the difference betwen 3 COC and 2 shrines is much reduced, at 17%. For S7 attacks, it goes in favour of the shrine, sure, but only by a 4% margin...

Offensive stats:
Comparing 3 COC to 2 shrines evens up the match.
Zombie 100% - 130%
E. Halberds 95% - 120%
Elfs elites 80% - 85%
E. knights 130% - 300%
C. Halberds 80% - 80%
COC is good against low armours, shrine is good against tough armours.
Depending on your meta-environment, this is what should help you to choose.

Psychology.
Spreading out Ld10 throughout the army is probably the greatest asset for shrines.
Ld9: SS, DH, masters, all special & rare R&F infantry, COK, COC
Ld8: sorc, all core troops, RBT, s-runner, shades, warlocks, shrine, dragon
Ld<: all non elf troops & mounts except dragon.

Ld< troops need the general in vicinity.
Ld8 ask for either the general or the shrine.
Ld9 general begs for being upgraded to Ld10.
When your general is on the loose with his dragon or manti, you're glad to upgrade your elites to Ld10 nevertheless.

Shooting.
You're comparing 12 RXB shots, S3 AP, to 8 stare shots, S4 against I rather than E.
Similar chances to hit (long range, multiple shots, move & shoot penalties apply to both) but half the range for stare.
Obviously RXB are better against S3 no armour and stare is better against monsters. Chances to achieve anything are small anyway.


The sorceress' camping car.
Compliments for a creative use! :D
Joining units is what the shrine does best.
Sure, such unit will cost a lot of pts. But having the sorc on 2nd rank is highly valuable and easy to do as the muso and pennant cannot be removed.
You'd get a Ld10 general, safely in 2nd rank where only Lokhir could agress her (or a side charge).

With a PoD casting sorc increasing S, you might even get a real fighting unit.
Synergy with Shroud of Despair Ld bomb is obvious, where you charge in the midst of enemies (fearing not that they hit your sorc) and furthermore you lower their Ld.

Which unit would be adequate babysitter? Only 2 models would be in the front, with 1 supporting attack. On the other hand, if rear or flank charged, more would be in contact.
Swords would be good for being cheap & resistant, but aren't any offensive. Corsairs have 2 S3(4) attacks 360°. So have BG, with S4(5) and ItP/stubborn (at Ld10).
Add flaming banner to remove regen, or ranger to prevent the shrine to break during a charge, or AP banner.
Ironcast ring enchanted item is must-have. Ring of Hotek talisman might be good also, for a unit rushing into melee, which bearer is nearly sure not to die in CC. Note that you'd get only MR(3), it does not stack.

We knew about the COB/WE bunker, now we have the shrine/SS/BG bunker.
EDIT: A nice cozy luxury 6 wheel camping car, with a bathtub and a great mirror for ladies.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by T.D. »

Wonderful write up, Scyloc, and good summary Calisson.

How about a guard dog to go along with this unit:

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72950&p=878385#p878385
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Phierlihy »

What's up with people trying to name a character and his gear?! Bloody annoying.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by T.D. »

Branding :D
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Forbrannir »

Really nice write up. I initially thought the same as you and after a good half hour of chewing my opinion hasn't changed but I enjoyed the thought train a lot :D. Won't put one in my army but will definitely use the gorgon as a unit filler (especially as I have a snakey theme going), going to have her holding up the screaming empire guy from the giant kit. Thanks for posting this.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Gladisknight »

Hello,
after about 2 years of floating ghost-like around, I thought with the new book it would be a good moment to register here as I sure will have a few questions in the coming weeks :-)
I read this thread and this is a great analysis. After initial scepticism, I think I will give that shrine a chance.

However, at a few instances the OP mentions that the cold one chariot suffers from stupidity (as it did in the old book).
But does it? I can't find a stupidity entry on the chariot's stats (even though it uses cold ones to be pulled) and thought that was a bit weird.
Stupidity figures only in the entry of the cold one knights (as far as I can see it)...
Do I miss something here?

Also, I think the shrine's Aura and "Terror" could make this model shine. Charging it at chaff for failed Panic tests or accompanying a block of superfrenzy witchelves (suffering from the -3 Ld test to restrain frenzy), suddenly that +1 Ld bonus might come handy.
Last edited by Gladisknight on Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Calisson »

p.93, extreme right, it reads stupidity.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Gladisknight »

Calisson wrote:p.93, extreme right, it reads stupidity.

Sorry, I have only the electronic version of the book for the IPad, under page 93 I have a description of Lokhir :-). Maybe there is a mistake between the electronic book and the hardcover one? I am rereading the chariot's entry and I can t find any stupidity... bummer
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Calisson »

Last word in COC entry, both in the bestiary and in the army list.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Gladisknight »

Calisson wrote:Last word in COC entry, both in the bestiary and in the army list.

Well, thx, it must be a difference between the hardcover edition and my electronic one. I will make a note of it.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Scyloc »

A single heavens support caster with iceshard blizzard, suddenly becomes much more fearsome.

Lets say you two-dice iceshard blizzard. If he lets it through (a good chance with all other threatening spells in the game) and you call a charge with the shrine, he is looking at firstly a terror test -1LD or he will run outright. Secondly he will most likely be facing a combat with -1 to hit your Bloodwrack Shrine, and then a breaktest with -2LD.
Pretty hardcore for a single signature spell.

Word of Pain & miasma also has a lot of synergy with the Bloodwrack Shrine. WS decrease will often equate to -1 to hit for the enemy (if he is reduced to WS2 or less), and the I decrease does wonders for Avert Your Gaze!

4 Empire Knights I3 suffer 1.56 W
4 Empire Knights I1 suffer 2.59 W (+67% damage)

An extra dead 1+ as knight and -1 to hit, is pretty good value for a couple of power dice.

Nothing gamebreaking, but all small things count.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Trax »

Thanks for the great summary.

I look for every single positive word about the BWS since I really like the idea/concept and model and kinda want to use them - without feeling bad about fielding a totally gimpy choice.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Scyloc »

They will never be an auto-include choice. But if you have some way of handling cannons either through target saturation and/or warmachine hunting, they can be a very decent unit even at its cost imo.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Entreri bloodletter »

Very nice write up! I always think that people write things off as useless way too quickly when the book first comes out and then don't even try it out as the prevailing "internet wisdom" says not too. I applaud attempts at debunking stuff like that.

That being said, I do agree that the bloodwrack shrine is not an auto-include, but needs to be planned to synergize with the rest of the list. (Actually I think that's how all DE should play but that's another story)

When I eventually get around to buying the kit I think I will try adding it to a unit of of spearmen along with a sorceress of some kind. That many additional ranks just from adding it can help keep the cost of the unit down and still provide many ranks to break an opponent. I love the idea of the level 1 Heavens mage for the Ld hex. It seems there is a lot of synergy between the three units, a sorceress needs a bunker, spearmen need protection from nasty combat threats, and the BWS needs protection from BS shooting. While expensive, I think that combined these units would be greater than the sum of their parts and needs consideration.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Scyloc »

I agree with you Entreri.

Apart from things you just mentioned. Any list including a Bloodwrack Shrine, needs a way to deal with cannons either through target saturation, spells and or warmachine hunters.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Dalamar »

Honestly, I think out new book has very few auto-include choices (Dark Riders and Warlocks come to mind) but also very few useless choices (poor Black Guard :( I even found a use for harpies already and I'm still waiting for my book) which makes for a very good and varied book
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Melf »

Loving this thread!

I'm used to taking 35 Warriors (5x7) as an steadfast anvil in my army to hold my enemies for a while slipping on blood of my brave spearmen. Problem is that it now costs 345 points compared to old 270 and i still want that kind of unit in my army (rank and flank ftw!). I did usually have it as a Sorceress's bunker too.

Thanks to this post now i see that i can take 20 Warriors and BWS for a total cost of 385 and have an unit that is also 5x7 for steadfast gain, is much more resistant to a charge from dragon princes and such, keeps my Sorceress in a second rank far from harm, has Terror and MR1, gives me +1Ld and -1Ld to foes, has a stand&shoot that can take a wound or two from the enemy, has Impact hits d6+1 and is looking completely awesome. This new unit will be doing the same thing as those 35 spearmen but with so many new benefits and all that for.. 40 points = price of 4 additional warriors! I can't wait to try it!

I'm aware that having additional 20 t3 wounds in place of 5 t6 could benefit me sometimes but when being charged by anything like dragon princes or savage orcs that would mean just loosing those guys in droves.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Calisson »

Be aware that we're talking in abstract so far.
Theories need fine-tuning (which unit? Which banner?) and repeated trial.
Please try and report!
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by HERO »

Calisson wrote:Be aware that we're talking in abstract so far.
Theories need fine-tuning (which unit? Which banner?) and repeated trial.
Please try and report!


Yes, please play and tell me if the Shrine is worth the points spent on it. I sincerely doubt it.
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by Gerner »

HERO wrote:Yes, please play and tell me if the Shrine is worth the points spent on it. I sincerely doubt it.

Ever the optimist. ;)
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Re: Scylocs deeper look into the use of the Bloodwrack Shrin

Post by jeffman »

Nice write up

i think i will play the shrine after all!!
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