How to crack this Empire army..?
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
How to crack this Empire army..?
Hello brothers and sisters!
I Need your advice as i am going up against the empire the next weeks. I hate to Play vs cheap S 4 Infantry and lots of underpriced warmachines
He uses a list like this:
1 LV 4 light (goes in the 40 halberd Horde)
1 LV 2 light ( in the halberd Horde)
1 LV 2 light ( in the halberd Horde)
1 Pegi hero
Core:
40 halberds
6 archers
6 archers
5 Knights
5 Knights
3 Demichickens
2 Cannons
1 steam tank
1 hellblaster
1 Luminarum
1 warshrine
I think this is a very hard list to deal with and i would apreciate it if someone has some good ideas, thanks !
I Need your advice as i am going up against the empire the next weeks. I hate to Play vs cheap S 4 Infantry and lots of underpriced warmachines
He uses a list like this:
1 LV 4 light (goes in the 40 halberd Horde)
1 LV 2 light ( in the halberd Horde)
1 LV 2 light ( in the halberd Horde)
1 Pegi hero
Core:
40 halberds
6 archers
6 archers
5 Knights
5 Knights
3 Demichickens
2 Cannons
1 steam tank
1 hellblaster
1 Luminarum
1 warshrine
I think this is a very hard list to deal with and i would apreciate it if someone has some good ideas, thanks !
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
I agree, is one of the strongest known Empire builds and it is not very easy to deal with. However, it is a reasonable matchup for us due to a lack of template weapons.
I'm assuming the Warshrine is an Arch Lector on Waraltar? I'm also assuming he has a BSB somewhere?
For starters, a horde of Executioners will be very hard for him to deal with. He cannot really engage it in close combat with anything but the Steam tank, and cannot really threaten it from range with his Warmachines (since we can stay out of range of the Hellblaster). The only tool he has is repeated Banishments or a panic check, so let's stick a BSB in there with the Ring of Hotek for some protection.
Magic-wise I would advocate a Lvl4 on Death. If he has a very strong list I would assume that he has some MR in the unit, but Snipe-spells can still help you threaten his mages from early on, and every wizard you can kill means that the strength of Banishment is reduced. Purple Sun is also a very good counter against the Steam tank. Lets put her on a Dark Steed and give her MR(2), and then send her out with the Warlocks. That way, they have 2++ against his magic. I would also include a Lvl1 Metal for good measure, and just chuck 6 dice at Searing Doom if the Steamtank or Demigryphs get too close. Let's give her the Scroll of Shielding (4++ against a single spell), since this stacks with the MR(3) from Ring of Hotek for a nice 2++ against one spell.
I would include another Master on Pegasus with the Cloak to soak up some Cannon fire and jump war machines. Warlocks are also very strong against Empire, he can kill them fairly easily with Banishment but if that is his only tool against multiple threats that means we are winning.
Bolt throwers are very good against him as they threaten his Chariot-esque stuff from a distance. If given a choice, prioritise the Waraltar and Steam tank.
All in all, this is the list I would suggest;
Lvl4 Death on Dark Steed, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Amulet (MR2)
Master on Pegasus, Lance, Full mundane, Cloak of Twilight
Master BSB, Full mundane, GW, Ring of Hotek
Lvl1 Sorceress, Scroll of Shielding, Ironcurse Icon
10 Dark Riders, xBows, Shields, Musician
10 Dark Riders, xBows, Shields, Musician
10 Dark Riders, xBows, Shields, Musician
4 Bolt Throwers
30 Executioners, FC
5 Harpies
7 Shades, Musician
10 Warlocks, Champion
If you don't have 30 Dark Riders (which I don't myself), I probably would get some Witch Elves and some Crossbows. WE are not really optimal against Empire due to all the armour, but that is true for all our core choices and if you are lucky and get to fight the Halberdiers you will steamroll them. The Crossbows can focus on the more exposed chariots (Luminarc, Hurricanum) and hopefully add to the combined shooting power to bring them down.
Good luck!
//Seto
I'm assuming the Warshrine is an Arch Lector on Waraltar? I'm also assuming he has a BSB somewhere?
For starters, a horde of Executioners will be very hard for him to deal with. He cannot really engage it in close combat with anything but the Steam tank, and cannot really threaten it from range with his Warmachines (since we can stay out of range of the Hellblaster). The only tool he has is repeated Banishments or a panic check, so let's stick a BSB in there with the Ring of Hotek for some protection.
Magic-wise I would advocate a Lvl4 on Death. If he has a very strong list I would assume that he has some MR in the unit, but Snipe-spells can still help you threaten his mages from early on, and every wizard you can kill means that the strength of Banishment is reduced. Purple Sun is also a very good counter against the Steam tank. Lets put her on a Dark Steed and give her MR(2), and then send her out with the Warlocks. That way, they have 2++ against his magic. I would also include a Lvl1 Metal for good measure, and just chuck 6 dice at Searing Doom if the Steamtank or Demigryphs get too close. Let's give her the Scroll of Shielding (4++ against a single spell), since this stacks with the MR(3) from Ring of Hotek for a nice 2++ against one spell.
I would include another Master on Pegasus with the Cloak to soak up some Cannon fire and jump war machines. Warlocks are also very strong against Empire, he can kill them fairly easily with Banishment but if that is his only tool against multiple threats that means we are winning.
Bolt throwers are very good against him as they threaten his Chariot-esque stuff from a distance. If given a choice, prioritise the Waraltar and Steam tank.
All in all, this is the list I would suggest;
Lvl4 Death on Dark Steed, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Amulet (MR2)
Master on Pegasus, Lance, Full mundane, Cloak of Twilight
Master BSB, Full mundane, GW, Ring of Hotek
Lvl1 Sorceress, Scroll of Shielding, Ironcurse Icon
10 Dark Riders, xBows, Shields, Musician
10 Dark Riders, xBows, Shields, Musician
10 Dark Riders, xBows, Shields, Musician
4 Bolt Throwers
30 Executioners, FC
5 Harpies
7 Shades, Musician
10 Warlocks, Champion
If you don't have 30 Dark Riders (which I don't myself), I probably would get some Witch Elves and some Crossbows. WE are not really optimal against Empire due to all the armour, but that is true for all our core choices and if you are lucky and get to fight the Halberdiers you will steamroll them. The Crossbows can focus on the more exposed chariots (Luminarc, Hurricanum) and hopefully add to the combined shooting power to bring them down.
Good luck!
//Seto
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Thanks for this ! As i have only 15 Dark riders i will use something like 2 x 6 Harpies to shield my fast Units. The pegi master should get to the hellblaster & Co. ASAP.
In the meanwhile i will hold the Executioners out of range from the warmachines. I think also about a unit of darkshards instead of the other 15 dark riders.
In the meanwhile i will hold the Executioners out of range from the warmachines. I think also about a unit of darkshards instead of the other 15 dark riders.
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Does the MR stack with the Warlocks Ward Save?
- Searinox Nagharha
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
yes it does
PLOG - The House of Corvus
Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth
Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Searinox Nagharha wrote:yes it does
Cool. Slowly building a DE army at present. In this case I might need to revise my trial list :-)
But I assume that the "Prey of the Dark Prince" Ward Save doesnt help any characters out vs death snuipes and so on?
- Searinox Nagharha
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Correct it does not. Mass shooting and Spells will still have to eat through the Wardsave tho aslong as there are 5+ RnF models.
PLOG - The House of Corvus
Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth
Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
What is the best way to kill the OP-tank in Close combat?
- Thraundil
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Avoid close combat
But that aside. Anything that has high S; knights on the charge, exec, BG with razor banner in a tight spot (they wont wound it much, though), K-beast does really nicely. Medusa stare / aura. Or as an alternative, volume. Witch elves will wound it well enough and he is bound to roll some 1's. Dont count too much on WE though, best is to chip some wounds off it at range and then hit it with as high S as possible.
But that aside. Anything that has high S; knights on the charge, exec, BG with razor banner in a tight spot (they wont wound it much, though), K-beast does really nicely. Medusa stare / aura. Or as an alternative, volume. Witch elves will wound it well enough and he is bound to roll some 1's. Dont count too much on WE though, best is to chip some wounds off it at range and then hit it with as high S as possible.
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Ilphrin wrote:What is the best way to kill the OP-tank in Close combat?
Executioners, but even they can take a while to grind down a Stank unless they hit it in the flank.
Any unit with Mindrazor will do the job.
Potion of Strength on a character with a Multi-wound weapon.
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Obsidian Blade or Malus Darkblade ignore armour saves which is handy against Empire's stank & semigriphs.
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
And Malus have Strength 5 and re-roll all failed to wound!Calisson wrote:Obsidian Blade or Malus Darkblade ignore armour saves which is handy against Empire's stank & semigriphs.
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Steam tank how to kill:
Warlocks with power of darkness for st5 poisons.
Lord with +2 st sword and power of darkness or just st6.
Combo move!!!!! Press up up down down left right right let semi circle to unleash!!!!!:
Word of pain with 3 pips down st and then hit it with Black Horror. Good luck passing a st3 check (warlocks for a further -1 st and making it a st2 check but that's a super combo move).
Warlocks with power of darkness for st5 poisons.
Lord with +2 st sword and power of darkness or just st6.
Combo move!!!!! Press up up down down left right right let semi circle to unleash!!!!!:
Word of pain with 3 pips down st and then hit it with Black Horror. Good luck passing a st3 check (warlocks for a further -1 st and making it a st2 check but that's a super combo move).
Flyers for the win in 8th.
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Geist wrote:Combo move!!!!! Press up up down down left right right let semi circle to unleash!!!!!:
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Shades with 2 hand weapons can deal with the warmachines.
A second sorceress using lore of metal can also be effective against the steam tank and the demigriffs.
A second sorceress using lore of metal can also be effective against the steam tank and the demigriffs.
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Saintofm wrote:Shades with 2 hand weapons can deal with the warmachines.
A second sorceress using lore of metal can also be effective against the steam tank and the demigriffs.
Saintofm has it at the right end.
My first question.
What exactly are the problem area's you face against this list?
(general advise)
Metal will certainly be very good against this list.
Searing doom against the steam tank. The more wounds, the weaker it gets.
Final transmutation against the halberdiers.
That will be so funy,.
At least two fast elements (heroes on pegs, warlocks, harpies) to finish the warmachines ASAP.
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
My main Problem is the Hellblaster, Steam Tank and the Demis. It feels like Empire is so much more flexible then dark elfes. They use warmachines to cover space and cheap 1+ AS Knights for redirection. Steam Tank is the most powerful model in WHFB i feel... They channel with 5 dice...
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Ilphrin wrote:My main Problem is the Hellblaster, Steam Tank and the Demis. It feels like Empire is so much more flexible then dark elfes. They use warmachines to cover space and cheap 1+ AS Knights for redirection. Steam Tank is the most powerful model in WHFB i feel... They channel with 5 dice...
The hellblasters are a pain in the *rse.
The good thing is., they don't get very far,. and we are lucky they have to hit these days. The used to be AUTO hit!
How many of these does he use?
The trick here, isn't to get them with loads of dark elves bodies,. but with multiple threats., harpies, Pegasus Master (with cloack or ward save)
warlocks. Multiple threats to silence each warmachine.. Sure he gets to kill the harpies, or dark riders. It does serve the greater good.
You get this point?
Steam tank
Can you believe this thing was also more powerfull in the past?
I could "grind" units., and it had loads and loads of wounds. The thing is., It has lots of armour., so you don't want this thing in combat with our lightly troops.
Confront it with a dreadlord on a dark steed, or pegasus. Buy the ogre or giant blade.. That will "grind" the tank.., However there is a more faster method. Searing Doom, the numer ZERO spell from the lore of metal. Let your sorceress cast the boosted spell with 6 dice,. hope for an double six.
If all fails., then single bolts from your bolt throwers, will cause some holes in this thing.
Demie chics
Allright., there are things we elves armies don't want to confront one on one.
First of all., only enough executioners can open these KFC knights., problem is, your executioners can't get them and he will certainly not charge your 30 exectutioners. So., dont confront this unit at all., and feed it harpies or dark riders. When the demies, are setting up for a nice charge., put your harpies in front of them., angle them so, that he can't overrun in your precious unit. Now you have delayed this unit,. enabling you, to charge his unit with yours., shoot them to death., kill them with metal magic,. or charge them with your dreadlord, who has maximum saves and the ogre blade.
If all else fails., a dreadlord, on a steed. with an 1+ armour save., 4+ ward save and the crown of command., will stop any unit a couple or turns.,
Try to flank the demies with such a lord.
Flexible empire
Well its true,. as one the babies of GW. They do get some nice threarment., But so are we.
Use our better speed.
Empire magic
What spell, do you really fear?
There is non., because you gave your sorceress the fire gem, and your dreadlord a dragon helm,. and your master the cloack of twilight.
SO the default spell of light,. (wich is fire based) does't give you trouble at all.
The net of amynthok., you do want to dispell that ofcourse.
Birona's timewarp., Very effective,. but he can only charge in his next movement fase., so nothing really shocking here.
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Or if you are super gamey just railroad his stanks. Metal magic, bt's, executioners, and cold one knights (especially with the razor standard) can chew the armor. Also, all the big insta kills are good vs empire as their stats are 3's across the board so pit, dwellers, arnzipals, purple sun, tran, will eat him alive. Lastly, just get up in his face with his blocks as soon as possible for target saturation. Your troops are way more fighty than his.
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Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Thank you all for so much help! Now i got the Points of how to deal with such an army
Re: How to crack this Empire army..?
Something you might think about is using the AP banner on your Executioners.....
Might seem like overkill...but the only things that have armour worth mentioning are his knight, ST, and demigryphs....
All of them will dislike -4 on armour saves.
I know my regular empire opponent dislikes having to even face 30 Executioners with this banner.
After i killed and ran down 4 demi-gryphs and overran into his Steam Tank, killing that one in two turns.
I will admit the grind of the Steam Tank did take the fight out of them.
Might seem like overkill...but the only things that have armour worth mentioning are his knight, ST, and demigryphs....
All of them will dislike -4 on armour saves.
I know my regular empire opponent dislikes having to even face 30 Executioners with this banner.
After i killed and ran down 4 demi-gryphs and overran into his Steam Tank, killing that one in two turns.
I will admit the grind of the Steam Tank did take the fight out of them.