End Times: Khaine

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Gidean
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Gidean »

Amboadine wrote:
Dalamar wrote:I do actually, it introduces new nuances to the magic phase, even if it means one of them is "dispel PoD at all costs". Remember one successful dispel shuts the spell down for all wizards. You also have 1/6 chance of being allowed to use just 1pd and thus failing the spell (more likely than not), again shutting the spell of.



I think this is one of the nuances that has been missed with many people getting over excited at the prospect of 4D6 and no cap. Having to declare your spell then roll a die to find out the maximum number of dice that can be used to cast it make the big spells a little more risky to try and the chances of failing to cast higher.



Two things:

1) What will power our Cauldrons of Blood now? :killed: Can't see our new allies going for the necessary sacrifice. Spolier: And was Khaine destroyed when he lost his avatar? The new fluff certainly will NOT support the existence of Cauldrons of Blood...or even Witch Elves.

2) Black Guard with Banner of the World dragon holder and sorceress running PoD. :burns: Not looking forward to facing that.
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Dalamar
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Dalamar »

Hex scroll is pretty sweet against a loremaster.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Diobarach »

A hex scroll is pretty good against a loremaster, seems like switching to that from a dispel scroll is probably well worth it.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Amboadine »

Well its release day and my lovely new book is sit sat in the distribution centre 'pending'. Most annoyed that people already have theirs. They were quick enough to take my money.

Guess I should have got it delivered to store, but wanted to save myself a horrible round trip to the shopping centre. GW customer services aren't in on a weekend so I cannot even get it redirected to store for tomorrow. So minimum 2-3 days wait for me now and then will have to take time out of work to collect from the post office if I want it before next weekend.
Really don't understand how they send some out but not all.

Gahhhhh. Anyway rant over. On the bright side my Avatar of War witch elves arrived this morning :)
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Calisson »

Lucky me.
Went on the store at midnight, i.e. Saturday 00:00.
Got my copy! :D
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Deadsun »

I'm living Khaine through the rest of you :( I was far too slow so will be waiting for softback version for a few weeks.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Diobarach »

Gidean wrote:...

Two things:

1) What will power our Cauldrons of Blood now? :killed: Can't see our new allies going for the necessary sacrifice. Spolier: And was Khaine destroyed when he lost his avatar? The new fluff certainly will NOT support the existence of Cauldrons of Blood...or even Witch Elves.

2) Black Guard with Banner of the World dragon holder and sorceress running PoD. :burns: Not looking forward to facing that.


1) Yeah, I think he's toast. Also wondering about witch elves (and to an extent just DE), and I find the dark elf army bundle strange, it's just witch elves and a cob. Maybe GW is trying to offload them prior to the new edition before they get squatted. Might also be a cutthroat move due to raging heroes and gamezone producing fairly popular dark elf stuff.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by cultofkhaine »

Can some one tell me more about Prince Tyrion - when he takes up widowmaker and becomes the Avatar of Khaine doe he still ride his horse? (dumb question I know) :burns:
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Amboadine »

Cultofkhaine wrote:Can some one tell me more about Prince Tyrion - when he takes up widowmaker and becomes the Avatar of Khaine doe he still ride his horse? (dumb question I know) :burns:


Yes he still has his horse. Doesn't turn into a 40k like avatar.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by cultofkhaine »

Thanks Amboadine - I presume also that from a game perspective we would still field him on a 40mm base.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

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Cultofkhaine wrote:Thanks Amboadine - I presume also that from a game perspective we would still field him on a 40mm base.


No change to the model so whichever one he currently comes on.
Is he really on 40mm? Assumed he would be 50mm to fit cav units.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by cultofkhaine »

Hmm - let me check .......going to GW website ........ back to forum.

Yes your correct 50mm base, sweet - now I have some converting to do thanks :D
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Liquidedust »

So my local store by mistake misdelivered all End Times: Khaine to their second store so wont have my book until next week-end but a small question.

Does Warlocks and Morathi get Loremaster as well?

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
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vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Calisson »

Liquidedust wrote:Does Warlocks and Morathi get Loremaster as well?
Yes.
Morathi knows all spell from the 3 lores, and warlocks from 2 lores.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:
Liquidedust wrote:Does Warlocks and Morathi get Loremaster as well?
Yes.
Morathi knows all spell from the 3 lores, and warlocks from 2 lores.


Enjoy these changes while they last. In 9th edition there will be no Morathi. And you can bet they will amend the rules for Warlocks, Branchwraiths, Sisters of the Thorn, etc. Hmm...Wizarding hat on a Lord with full mundane armor could be a very interesting choice. :!:
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Gidean »

Sorry for the double post but since ownership of the book is so rare...can somebody that owns it explain how you use the new rules in conjunction with Reign of Chaos? :?
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Haagrum »

Gidean wrote:Sorry for the double post but since ownership of the book is so rare...can somebody that owns it explain how you use the new rules in conjunction with Reign of Chaos? :?


You pick the highest 2 dice for resolving Reign of Chaos.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Gidean »

Haagrum wrote:
Gidean wrote:Sorry for the double post but since ownership of the book is so rare...can somebody that owns it explain how you use the new rules in conjunction with Reign of Chaos? :?


You pick the highest 2 dice for resolving Reign of Chaos.



Thanks
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Dalamar »

Which should've been highest + lowest to keep the same spread... now you're more likely to get the higher end results on the table.

But I guess that was intended, with more magic around demons are stronger.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Gidean »

Been bad mouthing the 4D6 and re-casting spells for some time on the forums now. :badh:

Got to finally give it a go last night. Yeah...it's ASS! :x Just as dumb as I imagined. Playing against an opponent with level 4 High Elf Archmage and a Loremaster of Hoeth with Book of Hoeth. He got a 21 dice casting phase. Watched him pick up what looked like a deck of playing cards. Was in fact the entire set of magic cards. Then watched him proceed to one dice each of the low level spells putting hexes and augments into the main combat we had. I finally picked up a magazine and started to read it. If I was a smoker I would have gone outside for a long smoke. :roll: The game was boring beyond belief. Did not matter what our respective troops started out to be. After fifteen hexes and augments you can make gnoblars beat chaos chosen. Could they MAKE the game any more worthy of a YAWN?

Even though he slaughtered me (with me giving him the game in turn 5) he too agreed that the magic system is ass and that if adopted for tournament play you might as well kiss the two hour tournament rounds good-bye.

Pretty sure my club will be sticking with Warhammer Magic (as is/was).
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Calisson »

Thanks for the testimony.
Still, didn't you have anything to dispel?
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Re: End Times: Khaine

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IMHO, the new magic rules reek of under-playtesting. Nevertheless, I am satisfied that they do not suck if the following changes are made:

1. The rule about spellcasters knowing every spell from every lore from which they know one or more spells only applies to wizards who randomly generate spells or are allowed to select their spells from one or more lores of magic.

2. Special characters who are able to choose to generate spells from multiple lores of magic may elect to know all the spells from one of those lores, chosen after their spells are generated.

3. The effects of the same spell successfully cast on a single target do not stack more than once in the same magic phase.

4. No spell may be attempted more than three times in the same magic phase by the same caster.

---

Reasoning for each of these proposed changes:

#1 takes care of abuse of Loremasters of Hoeth, Warlocks and Sisters of the Thorn. Each of them is good enough to warrant inclusion in any army list anyway, and they don't need the boost. It doesn't nerf Pink Horrors, but they arguably need the love, and the Lore of Tzeentch isn't exactly a game-breaker by itself.

#2 prevents abuse of the rules by special characters, while still allowing them to retain an advantage over their lesser compatriots. At least one spell choice has to be invested in a given lore to get the benefit of knowing all of that lore. For example, Phoenix King Malekith will know 3 spells from Dark Magic and all of the Lore of Fire, or vice versa, but not all spells from both lores. With this change, Nagash, the Mortarchs, Fateweaver, Teclis, vanilla Alarielle and Morathi are all still excellent, and certainly "special" in this respect, but not completely overloaded with spell options.

#3 stops the same spell from stacking. This prevents abuses of spells like Iceshard Blizzard, Word of Pain, Power of Darkness or Wyssan's Wildform to swing combats, as well as repeated Spirit Leeches on the same target. Rules #1 and #2 prevent someone from being able to circumvent this by throwing the entire deck of spells at a target. It might still be worth repeatedly casting spells like Soul Quench or Flesh to Stone, even though the only outcome is the triggering of the lore attribute. Sure, you can try to force a series of spells through onto the one target, but that leads us on to rule #4.

#4 primarily limits players from abusing Nagash/Arkhan summoning spells, power dice generation with Power of Darkness, and cheap bound spells. Stop that spell/bound spell three times, and it's not being cast by that caster. You can still force through spells, but you need multiple casters who know that same spell (which is now possible for any army, it's just more expensive in points terms). With random casting dice, it becomes much harder to force through the same spells (if they're bigger), and this hard limit stops cheap spells from being over-spammed. It may be a bit unbalanced for Night Goblins, but there's a miscast risk associated with their mushroom dice. Realistically, it's more of an issue for Undead Legions than other forces, and could be dropped if everyone's opting into a cheese-fest.

Thoughts on these house rules?
Last edited by Haagrum on Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:Thanks for the testimony.
Still, didn't you have anything to dispel?



I believe I used my scroll the turn before. My 12 dispel dice did not last long against his 21 power. He had a level advantage too and of course the blasted Book of Hoeth. I think I used most of the dispel dice to stop a high cast roll. I didn't use my wizard and just tossed six or seven dispel dice to stop that one. We were playing that dispelled spells could not be attempted again. Didn't matter when he had the whole bloody deck available.

@ Haagrum:

You can house rule until the sun goes down. Nothing beats the brb magic system in my opinion. It works. Even six dicing is hit and miss and often doesn't even meet the casting value you are going for.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Haagrum »

Gidean wrote:@ Haagrum:

You can house rule until the sun goes down. Nothing beats the brb magic system in my opinion. It works. Even six dicing is hit and miss and often doesn't even meet the casting value you are going for.


Don't take this the wrong way, Gidean, but when you've condemned something before even trying it, the open-mindedness of your opinion is susceptible to criticism.

I agree that the End Times magic rules are broken. The house rules I suggested address all of the concerns you have put forward, but you reject them out of hand. I don't mind the BRB rules for magic, but I often feel that magic is over-priced (points-wise) in Warhammer compared to the cost of shutting it down. The BRB rules are familiar and tested, and thus are not threatening. Something a little different keeps things more interesting. I have enough black-letter law rules in my day job - I'm happy for some escapism when I'm playing with toy soldiers. :mrgreen:

I haven't played a game using End Times magic rules. I'm reasonably sure I wouldn't mind too much, as long as no-one took special characters with simultaneous access to multiple lores, a Loremaster of Hoeth, Sisters of the Thorn or Doomfire Warlocks. That such a caveat has to be stated is itself evidence of a problem with those rules.
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Re: End Times: Khaine

Post by Calisson »

Well, Warhammer has been once dubbed Herohammer, now we get Wizardhammer.


1. Changes.
ET:K is deliberately magic-heavy.
The 50% allowance to lords or heroes further confirms the lesser importance of troops.

Compared to regular WH, the balance is strongly altered in favour of all spell casters.
Instead of knowing 1, 2, 3 or 4 spells, they suddenly have access to 6 spells, + 1 or 2 signature + 2 ET spells; instead of hoping to get randomly "the" spell they wish they are sure to get it and to be able to cast it several times.
This improves all casters, and it improves more the low levels than the high levels.
Some special characters such as Morathi have access to several lores. They benefit even more.
Some spell casters which were restrited to a few set spells (Warlocks, Sisters of T, Loremasters, Pink Horrors) get an immense bonus.

However, in order to make the best of your many spells, you need PD. There is still a PD limitation, even if it is twice as in normal WH.
Note that DD are increased as well, which mitigates the PD increase.
Here, level 4 casters have a great advantage with their +4 to cast, compared to bounded objects or Lvl1. This bonus is more important than for regular WH.
Also, anything which brings more PD gives a strong advantage. We're talking, in particular, about Death Magic, PoD and DE's Sac Dagger.

Overall, WH balance is changed in favour of:
Low levels who get reliable access to many more spells. Even truer for casters having access to several lores.
High levels who can cast more than low levels.
Magic objects which can be used once per spell.
Anything which generates more PD.


2. Adaptations.
In that context, a Lvl4 is paramount for the +4 to cast or dispel, despite not having more spells than a Lvl1.
By not taking a Lvl 4, you're shooting yourself in the foot before running a race.

Arcane objects working once per spell become extremely powerful.
The Book of Ashur is available for most races and should be taken despite costing 70pts for the +1 to cast/dispel.
HE have the Book of Hoeth which is immensely useful, rerolling 1 die for each casting/dispel attempt.
DE lose interest for the Tome of Furion, but Ring of Hotek and Sac Dagger become highly useful.
Note that according to a strict RAW reading, these HE & DE object are not available to ET:K combined armies.

Also, the importance of spell casters means that killing spell casters is paramount. Compare this to the importance of killing the general & BSB in a regular WH game.
Therefore, Death magic is extremely useful with its ability to snipe. Also, suicide squads able to kill a mage babisitted in a unit are very useful.
Reversely, the ability to hide in a second rank is more valuable than ever. This is provided by CoB and BWS.


3. Meta changes.
When you play ET:K magic rules, you should come with:
- Lvl4 with Book of Ashur
- Death magic on a mobile mage
- Small fast suicide units to kill hidden mages.
If available in your army, you’d better take:
- Multi lores characters or units
- Other magic objects which benefit each spell
- Units where your mage can hide in second rank

For a DE player, Morathi is a must: mobile, death & PoD, that’s excellent!
Add another Lvl4 with sac dagg, hidden in a unit with CoB or BWS to push her in 2nd rank.
Add warlocks.
Take DR and harpies for suicide-charges against opponent mages.
Take 4 RBT to snipe magic-users flying beasties.

A normal ET:K game will be a magic duel.
The one who dominates magic wins. Kill the opponent's mages, spare your own, and you win.



Conclusion.
ET:K is as different from WH as comped WH, Storm of Magic, or Treachery & Treason.
If you play ET:K, you must adapt your army list.
If you don’t want to adapt to the specific meta, you will be frustrated and get bored, and annoy your opponent too. In that case, better not play these rules.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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