ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

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Cihan
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ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Cihan »

When two units with ASF fight eachother they strike at the same time. I thought I read somewhere that regardless of both being ASF that the unit with the higher initiative still can reroll their misses. But in the German rulebook it says very clearly that you cannot.

Question: Unit A (ASF) vs Unit B (ASF with higher I)
Can Unit B reroll to hits? And if, why (provide source)?
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Dalamar »

No, asf cancels another asf out. They strike at the same time and nobody rerolls.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Cihan »

Thanks for the quick reply. Too bad though :)!
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Thetosh »

However as a Dark Elf, if you're fighting a High Elf you will still get to re-roll, as we have Hatred.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Red... »

However as a Dark Elf, if you're fighting a High Elf you will still get to re-roll, as we have Hatred.
Only in the first round of combat.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Mordrin Spiteblade »

So, forgive me if this might be a bone question but the way I understand it Executioner's ASF is lost by cancelling out the ASL of their draichs. Does this mean that as soon as they fight any High Elves the HEs get to use their own ASF and get their re-rolls to hit? I haven't played HEs yet but I can anticipate it being a game-delaying discussion.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by direweasel »

Red... wrote:
However as a Dark Elf, if you're fighting a High Elf you will still get to re-roll, as we have Hatred.
Only in the first round of combat.


...except for Black Guard, who have Eternal Hatred.

The exception to the exception, as it were. :)
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Curse_Bearer »

Mordrin Spiteblade wrote:So, forgive me if this might be a bone question but the way I understand it Executioner's ASF is lost by cancelling out the ASL of their draichs. Does this mean that as soon as they fight any High Elves the HEs get to use their own ASF and get their re-rolls to hit? I haven't played HEs yet but I can anticipate it being a game-delaying discussion.


As long as their Initiative is equal to or higher, yes. It is my understanding that ASF + ASL means the two rules are inactive during play. This means that higher Ini ASF gets re-rolls, but also that Execs can not be given ASL again (a la frost pheonix) because they already have that rule, which cannot be given twice.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Killerk »

that is incorrect asf and asl dont cancel each other out. you still have both rules, but you strike in init order as the rules say. so when fighting an asf opponent you both strike in init order.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Haagrum »

Killerk wrote:that is incorrect asf and asl dont cancel each other out. you still have both rules, but you strike in init order as the rules say. so when fighting an asf opponent you both strike in init order.


This is incorrect.

ASF states (amongst other things) that "[i]f a model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule." Initiative no longer makes any difference between models who Always Strike First. Think of the order of attacks this way: ASF attacks first, then models attack in Initiative order (descending from 10 to 1), and then ASL attacks occur.

ASL states that if a model has both ASL and ASF, "the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative." The model still has both of those rules, but neither has any in-game effect. Effectively, both rules have blank text for that model.

If a model with ASF + ASL fights a model with only ASF, and the model with only ASF has equal or higher Initiative, the ASF-only model will get re-rolls to hit. The ASF + ASL model does not have the abilities granted by ASF, and thus cannot prevent the ASF-only model from either attacking first or from getting re-rolls from ASF.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Killerk »

not exacly. when a asf + asl fights a enemy with asf you both strike at the same time. as per the rules you quoted. there is no exeption in the rules, both models have asf so they strike simutaniously. bus since one of them has asl he has to strike with his initiative. thus both strike simutanioisly accordi g to initiative of the model with asl rule.
It is stupid but thats the way GW made it.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Haagrum »

Killerk wrote:not exacly. when a asf + asl fights a enemy with asf you both strike at the same time. as per the rules you quoted. there is no exeption in the rules, both models have asf so they strike simutaniously. bus since one of them has asl he has to strike with his initiative. thus both strike simutanioisly accordi g to initiative of the model with asl rule.
It is stupid but thats the way GW made it.


I'm not sure the rules could be any clearer.

ASL as worded states that if a model has both ASL and ASF, "the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative." The ASL+ASF model doesn't have the ability to Always Strike First precisely because of these words in the ASL rule. There is no basis to assume that ASF still has any effect for a model with both ASF and ASL. The ASF-only model fighting the ASF+ASL model is fighting an enemy with the same special rule, but not the same ability (which is the wording used in the ASF rule's text). This distinction is critical and allows the full wording of both special rules to be reconciled in a way which makes sense.

On your interpretation, ASL becomes infectious for enemy models, even when the rule itself makes it very clear that neither ASL nor ASF applies when a model has both of those special rules. As you've noted, the absurdity in this interpretation is obvious.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Killerk »

I dont have the BRB in front of me, so please check, but I remember it saying that the effects of the rules cancel each other out, it does not mention the rules them selves.
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Re: ASF vs ASF: Higher Ini = Rerolls?

Post by Calisson »

BRB wrote:If a model has both this rule and ASF, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's I.
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