Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

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Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by marcopollo »

MODERATOR'S EDIT:
Thread split from: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of awesome
Nice statements about ET:K go there, criticisms stay here.
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Big F'in deal. I don't care at all about the fluff. Well maybe only 2 or 3%. What I care about is not having to purchase and paint up tons of new models to field "competitive" lists. I know that is GW's business model. But, I just don't have time for that.

I get it. It's GW's game, and I better be willing to tolerate their business model if I want to enjoy their hobby. So, generally, I just shut up, paint and play.

It's like a soap opera. All of a sudden the villain wakes up from a dream and all the plot lines from the last 10 seasons are moot. C'mon. Who do they think they are fooling?
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of awesome

Post by Eldarwonderland »

Spot On.
GW exist to make money and they use the tied in armies to accomplish that.

Introducing new rules is needed to create interest, it's only when they bugger it up that people complain.

My gripe with GW over the End Times is that whatever market research (if any!) was performed, they have spectacularly failed to supply enough books and especially magic cards. The people responsible for that should be made to man the customer service desks and explain why the players cannot get the material they would like.

If I were a shareholder I would be asking the management how do they sleep easy when so many opportunities to increase income slip between their grasping fingers.

The digital books are missing AT LEAST 50% of the population who have tablets or smartphones as they only sell Apple based products.
Not enough End Times books.
Pathetically small runs of magic cards.

Grrrrrrrrr
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of awesome

Post by Cold73 »

If I were a shareholder I would be asking the management how do they sleep easy when so many opportunities to increase income slip between their grasping fingers.


Well...i'm not a share holder, but since i make my living checking financial data...I can give you an idea what the answer would be like.

1) You never want to run the financial risk of having more of a product then you can actually sell (1st rule of succesfull business)
2) You always want your customers to anticipate what is coming...and to have them ask for more.

Especially with something as the End Times...which will be no MAIN book...you want to achieve 2 things.
1) By publishing a limited edition you can try to get a feel for the market..and maybe print another edtion (soft cover) to increase sales.
2) You want the players to ANTICIPATE the upcomming 9th edition.

If they had printed plenty of End Times books...they would have taken a financial risk for unsold copies. and with everyone owning a book...the anticipation for the upcoming changes would be far less.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of awesome

Post by Amboadine »

Before too much rage envelopes the thread, new supply on the way.I assume they saw the sales of Nagash and Glotkin and were able to react quicker to reduce the gap in release. It is also mentioned elsewhere that a re release of Hardbacks are coming next year.

Soft back release
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Eldarwonderland »

2) You want the players to ANTICIPATE the upcomming 9th edition.


Or for some people DREAD the upcoming 9th edition.


I only joined WHFB from 6th so I have no knowledge about "how good things were in the olden days"

Not raging but I would gladly duplicate my Hardbacked army books with the digital offerings but for my Android devices, yet even though most of the work has been done in creating the Apple version, nothing has been done to go that extra mile and produce copies for the rest of the population (windows excepted). Just seems a massive opportunity is being cast adrft here.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Deadsun »

The one thing I keep coming back with the end times is that this is the end times and the story of the climactic events of the ending of the warhammer world. If they continue the story beyond this point they cheapen the whole thing of it actually being the end. For me the future of warhammer as a game is playing battles set before this point and using the end times books for big apocalypse style games set in the period, playing the campaigns and ( if you are that way out) enjoying the fluff. It would be a shame for it all to be rolled into standard 9th and the story continue from there as the few paragraphs they have available simply will not be enough fo do the whole thing justice.

I do like that malekith eventually becomes king of all elves, but I really dont see what being land locked in
Athel Loren can possibly go story wise for the dark elves unless it is to march against chaos. I would rather the elves have been scattered across the world as they leave ulthuan ala various stories of the atlantians. That would slow more room for players to go their own way. That they have not done that indicates to me this is only the end for the elves and possibly the warhammer world too.

I am a died in the wool dark elf player so do not see much point of the eternity king list other than to fight the final battles against chaos that are yet to come. The other combined lists are so campaign specific they will only be ever used for fighting each other. When it comes down to it if the whole end times and new warhammer mess the fame and background up too much I can always just collect up all the current wfb publications and just play this edition for however long I like.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Calisson »

The End Time series is alleged to set path towards 9th edition, happening 100 years after.
What makes sense is the migration of all Elves to the Old World. Along with rumours that Lizzies also abandon their continent of origins, that would allow all factions to be concentrate in a single continent, where it would be easier to fight each other.
No longer need for journeys through roots for WE to fight Lizzies, and so on...
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Rork »

I'm a natural sceptic. While this may clear a path for new characters or huge army resets...it's not been in GW's nature.

Storm of Chaos tried to do nearly the same thing, but nearly anything to do with it was pulled from the game - who's to say that the joined up armies will last? People will find themselves with 'parts' of different armies and some will think "Oh, I should but x many more models to get a full army."

Will this idea continue? PP's Warmachine has an evolving plotline and characters which seems to be what GW is aping. Can GW tie it together like they do?
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by cultofkhaine »

All GW need to do now is bring out the Motion Picture or a TV Mini Series will do (Game of Thrones Style) and they can kill off all the old characters :P
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Rork »

Graphic novels instead of all that text could have been awesome.

(or maybe that's just my fading attention span talking)
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Christoph »

I will miss Naggaroth as a setting. I always loved its geography and culture, with its bleak mountains and forests and dark foreboding cities. It was my favorite part of the Warhammer World. :(
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Boltshot525 »

I too will miss the cold sea faring army that I have come to love.

Give it time and it will all just be wood elves. :(
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by marcopollo »

As long as the game mechanics are good, they can BS their story lines however they want. All 5k points of my DE have snow flock bases, and no one in my group is going to care two cents if they suddenly find that the DE homeland is a dry desert. We make-up our own personal storylines for our own personal armies anyways.

But if their game mechanics suck and there are some serious deficits, that would be a pity that would put me off the hobby for a second and most likely last time.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Beastlord Rakarth »

Christoph wrote:I will miss Naggaroth as a setting. I always loved its geography and culture, with its bleak mountains and forests and dark foreboding cities. It was my favorite part of the Warhammer World. :(


That's a shame.

If GW is hoping to save Warhammer, I really don't see how destroying 30 years of established background will solve anything. It would seem like a great risk and expense to wipe everything away and start over. I can see consolidating lists to trim the fat, but it makes me wonder where the Elves will end up. Are they really going to have models for Dark/High/Wood Elf Spearmen if all Elves end up in one army book?

With all of the rumors about new empires set 100 years in the future, skirmish, round bases, etc., I have a sense of foreboding about 9th edition.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Red... »

That's a shame.

If GW is hoping to save Warhammer, I really don't see how destroying 30 years of established background will solve anything. It would seem like a great risk and expense to wipe everything away and start over. I can see consolidating lists to trim the fat, but it makes me wonder where the Elves will end up. Are they really going to have models for Dark/High/Wood Elf Spearmen if all Elves end up in one army book?

With all of the rumors about new empires set 100 years in the future, skirmish, round bases, etc., I have a sense of foreboding about 9th edition.


I agree entirely. Moving stories along can be a good thing, but ripping apart your own core context is very risky. By and large, I liked the context of the current world (with its ebbs and flows, but also sense of established kingdoms that have solidity and depth) and don't really feel that the cataclysmic smashing of species against one another in a titanic battle of good versus bad that will re-sculpt the world as we know it ("save the cheerleader, save the world") is particularly beneficial for either the fluff or the game.

I also think it's going to be quite challenging for them to present the fluff in a compelling way to new comers. Bad elves fighting against good elves is quite a simple idea for your average pre-teen. The new fluff is, however, in short: Bad elves used to fight against good elves, but now one group of previously bad, yet now good elves are fighting alongside another group of previously good but now allied with the formerly bad elf king against a combination of now bad but formerly good elves, who are allied with the formerly bad and still mostly bad elves, but which are no longer allied with their formerly bad (but now good) king who led them all into darkness to begin with, yet secretly was good all along (despite all of the horrendously nefarious things he has been up to since being wrongly branded as bad)- that's going to be a tough sell to explain convincingly to an 11 year old who turned up looking to play a quick game at their local store.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by cultofkhaine »

Red you said that so well !lol!
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by marcopollo »

Red, the lessons of Orwell's 1984 will be alive and well should your prophetic vision hold true.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Calisson »

Just to clarify,
Red... wrote:Bad elves fighting against good elves is quite a simple idea for your average pre-teen.
The new fluff is, however, in short: Bad elves used to fight against good elves, but now one group of previously bad, yet now good elves are fighting alongside another group of previously good but now allied with the formerly bad elf king against a combination of now bad but formerly good elves, who are allied with the formerly bad and still mostly bad elves, but which are no longer allied with their formerly bad (but now good) king who led them all into darkness to begin with, yet secretly was good all along (despite all of the horrendously nefarious things he has been up to since being wrongly branded as bad).
You forgot to mention about the WE, which were formerly good elves which refused to fight the bad elves and were sometimes doing bad things themselves, but took the opportunity to join the bad elves and bad king turned to the good side along with some good ones with which they had so far refused to ally with, and finally fought against the bad elves that they had refused so far to fight against, because now these bad elves are joined by some formerly good elves with which they formerly refused to ally until now but are happy to fight against - but they never were really really bad by themselves and they are the only ones to remain at 100% on the good side.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Rork »

WH is sucking up some of the ideas in 40k - mainly the "Everyone is a bastard" routine. Yes, the High Elves could be morally grey in the past, but they were the 'Good' guys for the most part while the Dark Elves were the 'Bad' guys.

If you set everything on fire, it's going to be great (Hmm, about that...). The Empire was already heading that way with "Let's slap a skull on everything...including the skulls" and now everyone else has been thrown into the mix. Civilisation is on the brink and it needs a few good heroes to someone salvage, or at least maintain, what's left.

Ironically, Chaos hasn't changed much.

In essence, in the dark fantasy of the 3rd millenium there is only war and...hold on...
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Gidean »

Beastlord Rakarth wrote:
Christoph wrote:I will miss Naggaroth as a setting. I always loved its geography and culture, with its bleak mountains and forests and dark foreboding cities. It was my favorite part of the Warhammer World. :(


That's a shame.

If GW is hoping to save Warhammer, I really don't see how destroying 30 years of established background will solve anything. It would seem like a great risk and expense to wipe everything away and start over. I can see consolidating lists to trim the fat, but it makes me wonder where the Elves will end up. Are they really going to have models for Dark/High/Wood Elf Spearmen if all Elves end up in one army book?

With all of the rumors about new empires set 100 years in the future, skirmish, round bases, etc., I have a sense of foreboding about 9th edition.


I heard this is all being done to sever Rick Priestly's Royalty Rights. They have to remove all of his IP.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by T.D. »

^^ That's a quality conspiracy theory !lol!

There have been a few rumours of this nature recently. Does anyone have any solid info behind them?
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Haagrum »

In a shocking break from the gripes about the game mechanics and exhortations to buy more stuff, my annoyance is principally with the out-and-out Alith Anar fanboyism in the fluff.

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Seriously, that guy ruined everything.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Omnichron »

New editions, new rules and models where the balance will shift to some units that now sucks will become incredibly good and the powerful stuff will get... stuffed.

So, my warlocks will probably spend most of their time on the shelves collecting dust in the next edition while I have to get a lot of new spearelves or other things.

It is how GW survives (with incredibly steep prices as well of course), and the very reason most of my friends has quit Warhammer Fantasy and 40k a long time ago. I have been slow to join the newest edition of dark elves due to changes and not having the time to do all the painting of new miniatures that I have wanted to, so it is kinda sad to see that there are new rules and new things coming up before I have completed my project... especially knowing that the units I now paint will most likely be weak in the coming edition.

Anyways, that is my little rant. Fluffwise, it is about time that something considerable happens as I am tired of the stupid wars between DE and HE where Malekith is about to win the whole war but always gets beaten for some reason... then retreat, kill a few dreadlords and start over again.

I don't have a problem with one side winning totally over the other and somehow the elves gets bound together. No matter who rules in the future of 9th edition, I will mostly just have the DE side to play with and potentially add a thing or two to my army... and that is about it. As for the future of warhammer gaming, I have already been kinda out of the loop and mostly just done a few games and a couple of tournaments in the last year... so it might be as easy for me to pick up the new rules as it would be to leave the hobby entirely.
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by Gidean »

Haagrum wrote:In a shocking break from the gripes about the game mechanics and exhortations to buy more stuff, my annoyance is principally with the out-and-out Alith Anar fanboyism in the fluff.

Seriously, that guy ruined everything.


No...the GW Design Team 'ruined' everything. !mad!

Like I said, in MY World, Tyrion and Allarielle are still bumping bellies in Averlorn as the Maiden Guard stand guard to insure their privacy. 8)
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Re: Why is End of Times: Khaine kind of lousy

Post by T.D. »

Gidean wrote:Like I said, in MY World, Tyrion and Allarielle are still bumping bellies in Averlorn as the Maiden Guard stand guard to insure their privacy. 8)


Oxymoron? :P
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