Gidean wrote:bumping bellies in Averlorn
You see, this is why Elves are a dying race...they're doing it wrong
Gidean wrote:bumping bellies in Averlorn
Calisson wrote:I predict that one of the greatest change of fluff for the 9th edition will be the abandon of the equivalent of America.
Elves back to Athel Loren, Lizzies will migrate to the East too.
That will allow easier interferences between different races.
Red... wrote:Thanks Marcopollo and CultofKhaine.
I don't mind the story advancing, but I think there's a huge difference between positive organic evolution that allows a plot to advance, and a total shredding and rewriting of the entire world, which is what GW appear to essentially be doing. It doesn't feel so much that we are looking at the natural progression of the Warhammer world and its inhabitants, as a replacement by an entirely different world, which has barely cognizant links with the one it is replacing (it's hard to swallow the changes of heart for Malekith and Tyrion - it just doesn't resonate with the existing fluff at all). This all feels a bit like a poorly written novel by a 7th grader, who fails to develop his characters logically and focuses exclusively on cataclysmic clashes between supermen, while omitting the crucial nuances and fluidly connected story arcs that are needed to support the melodramatic moments.
r530 wrote:I think it's all going to move to a different 'dimension', wherever Araloth ends, with probably a whole new map, that's just maybe a tiny bit more imaginative than the current one.
Beastlord Rakarth wrote:r530 wrote:That's a shame, as I've always liked the pseudo-Earth map. I also liked the fact that there were several human kingdoms with an approximation to medieval/Renaissance Europe.
FVC wrote:My apologies. I am merely trying to express the depth of my disapproval.
If it helps, I think the battles are competently written and Kouran is neat. There are a few nice bits of characterisation as well: I like how Malekith regularly gets Kouran's name wrong. Spoilers from here on!
Making Malekith the protagonist of the whole thing was probably a mistake, in my opinion. A few other characters' perspectives would have helped, since Tyrion's turn to evil seems very important, but the book tells us absolutely nothing about his perspective, his interactions with Morathi, and so on; and Teclis seems like potentially the most interesting and complex character in the novel.
I think what bothers me the most about it is the approach to the gods. I've written about my views of Asuryan and Khaine before; but I think this novel's view of Asuryan in particular is very disappointing. The idea that Malekith was always destined to be Phoenix King just doesn't work for me. I can see what Thorpe was going for - the tragic irony of the entire six thousand year war being just because Malekith couldn't stand the pain for a few seconds longer - but I read it as a validation of Malekith's ego, whereas to me the important thing to understand about Malekith's character is how small and petty it is. Malekith is not worthy to be Phoenix King because he is only interested in being Phoenix King for selfish and prideful reasons; whereas as Curse of Khaine has it, Malekith is not worthy to be Phoenix King because his pain threshold was slightly lower than it ought to be. That just strikes me as banal, and centering the entire book on the person of Malekith and on Malekith's destiny to become Phoenix King just validates Malekith's ego in a way that I personally find distressing and disappointing. It even suggests that it was the taint of Chaos in Morathi that stopped the elven nobles from originally acclaiming Malekith is king. There's an early line in the book where Morathi tells Malekith "[your nature] is not that of a victor. Yours is to lose, and to blame others for the loss." The book seems all too ready to accept Malekith's delusions as true and to blame others for the fact that Malekith was rejected.
Morever, what the book implies about Asuryan's priorities just does not work for me either. As I commented in the linked thread, I understand Asuryan as being the incarnation of legitimate authority. Asuryan is the king of the gods: he is, essentially, kingship. The war between Asuryan and Khaine is not about who the better fighter is, but about which principle should order society. Khaine is the sword: he stands for might and naked power. Asuryan is the scepter: he stands for nobility and rulership through virtue. But the picture you get in the novel is very different. Teclis talks about all the previous Phoenix Kings being thieves, and mentions Finubar being reluctant to lead his people to war. But the idea that it is the duty of the Phoenix King to lead his people to war is a Khainite one. That doesn't come from Asuryan.
There were a lot of other things that bothered me. You get a fair number of claims that are either wrong or inconsistent with prior canon: the idea that all the post-Aenarion Phoenix Kings were consumed by madness, Tyrion just draws the Sword of Khaine despite ABs establishing that it takes extensive rituals to be able to draw it (p. 12 8th ed.), and so on.
Then there are a lot of things that just ring false. Caradryan should not speak, for instance, and if for some reason Caradryan must speak, as it is the will of Asuryan, he ought to speak with weight and power. He shouldn't just become an unquestioning minion for Malekith.
There's also tone and dialogue. My preferred vision of elves is one with a certain ancient dignity. It can be hard to define, but at times I found the major characters talking in a much too casual or modern way, and it didn't feel quite right to me.
I suppose there's also the implausibility of the entire set-up. A substantial proportion of Ulthuan rallying behind Malekith does not seem like a plausible sequence of events, and the way the novel explained it was not at all believable, in my opinion. There's a bit where Malekith comments "My name is poison on the tongues of the asur", and Teclis replies that it "will be nullified by your title"; as if the elves are so credulous as to follow an elf who has been trying to destroy them for six thousand years simply because he has decided to start calling himself 'Phoenix King'. Malekith points out that he looks hideous, and Teclis weaves an illusion to hide his armour and make him appear attractive, and I for one don't believe the High Elves are that superficial. And it's not as if Malekith is hiding in the shadows for the entire war. Indeed, he prominently reveals his identity at the Siege of Lothern, apparently believing that it will raise morale and help lead the army to victory. When Alarielle makes a statement consenting to wed Malekith in Lothern, the crowd promptly cheers and chants Malekith's name, instead of reacting to it the way I think they plausibly should, i.e. with utter horror and despair at the blasphemy implied.
So let me sum it up like this. I think key figures are not characterised sufficiently (or indeed at all), there are a number of what I would regard as continuity errors, Malekith's take-over of Ulthuan and Tyrion's submission to Morathi are highly implausible and do not ring true, important characters are portrayed in mundane and disappointing ways, the implied vision of the elven gods is disappointing and narrow, and I feel the book's perspective on Malekith and kingship is deeply flawed.
Now, you might love the book. You are not me; you might think it's great.
But I considered it probably the worst WHF novel I've read, and if you are anything like me, or if the problems I just described sound like things that might bother you, you might also find that you can't stand it.
Oh, and a final word: I personally don't have a grudge against Gav Thorpe. I really liked his Dark Angel books, his Sundering trilogy was okay, and as far as the Storm of Chaos ending goes, he was doing his best with what he had. Thorpe has also posted some things I like on the internet before, and I really appreciate his work on the Adeptus Mechanicus for Inquisitor. I would say that on the whole I am positively disposed towards Gav Thorpe and his writing. It's just that this particular book, in my opinion, was terrible. I don't know whether that's Thorpe's fault or the fault of whatever committee is setting the direction for the End Times story, and frankly I'm not really interested in assigning blame. I'd rather talk about the book than about the author.
Red... wrote:Malekith is welcomed by the bulk of the Asur as their king: Umm, what? The evil dude - who rent apart the golden era of elvish expansion. caused a horrendous millennia spanning war, set into place a dark and horrible kingdom that engaged in such pursuits as slaughtering captured high elves and abusing slaves, and embarked on numerous bloody and destructive invasions against Ulthuan - would not be welcomed back with open arms by the High Elves, and certainly would not be acknowledged as their leader.
Dalamar wrote:What I found interesting is that Druchii Dreadlords were more keen on the elven alliance than Asur Princes. Even then their armies camped apart and still witbessed skirmishes (which prompted Malekith to execute one of his best admirals). It was (and is) not all sunshine and rainbows as some people (who likely haven't read the book) like to paint it.
Curse_Bearer wrote:I hardly saw any complaining on this forum about DE/HE/WE mixing
Dalamar wrote:And before anyone complains that the Druchii abandoned their ways after coming to Athel Loren.
There's a tidbit that while Malekith forbade violence against denizens of the forest, Druchii are happily raiding Bretonnia.
- Malekith is welcomed by the bulk of the Asur as their king: Umm, what? The evil dude - who rent apart the golden era of elvish expansion. caused a horrendous millennia spanning war, set into place a dark and horrible kingdom that engaged in such pursuits as slaughtering captured high elves and abusing slaves, and embarked on numerous bloody and destructive invasions against Ulthuan - would not be welcomed back with open arms by the High Elves, and certainly would not be acknowledged as their leader.
- Malekith was the rightful and Asuryan recognized king of the High Elves all along: Again, what? This seems convoluted at best (what kind of benign god would have this elongated path as his long term plan? surely it would have just been easier to accept Malekith as king to start with, even if he made some technical errors in his timing regarding jumping into the flames to be annointed?) In game terms, why would Asuryan have given his incredible speed to the High Elves when fighting against Malekith and his legions, if Malekith was actually supported by Asuryan all along.
- The Wood Elves cash it all in and come back to join the Asur: Fine, with their forests are burning and their lands all but destroyed, with allies collapsing on all sides and enemies everywhere, I can buy that the Asrai go home.
Rork wrote:High Elf: "I'm not fat!"
Dark Elf: "Of course you're not, dear. You've just grown lazy and indolent and wrecked the inheritance for our children!"
High Elf: "I want a divorce."
Gidean wrote:Beastlord Rakarth wrote:Christoph wrote:I will miss Naggaroth as a setting. I always loved its geography and culture, with its bleak mountains and forests and dark foreboding cities. It was my favorite part of the Warhammer World.
That's a shame.
If GW is hoping to save Warhammer, I really don't see how destroying 30 years of established background will solve anything. It would seem like a great risk and expense to wipe everything away and start over. I can see consolidating lists to trim the fat, but it makes me wonder where the Elves will end up. Are they really going to have models for Dark/High/Wood Elf Spearmen if all Elves end up in one army book?
With all of the rumors about new empires set 100 years in the future, skirmish, round bases, etc., I have a sense of foreboding about 9th edition.
I heard this is all being done to sever Rick Priestly's Royalty Rights. They have to remove all of his IP.