Beyond the End Times - What is next.....

[Darkmark]

Sorry, for my Chicken Little moment yesterday.

I still don't know what to make of these rumours tbh. I do know that GW will have to reply in some way, surely, against their usual manner. These rumours certainly will send shock waves around all players and collectors.

Let's wait and see if GW cut off their nose to spite their face. Under estimating how emotionally invested people are in their army could be a fatal mistake IMO.

[Gidean]

Sorry, for my Chicken Little moment yesterday.

I still don't know what to make of these rumours tbh. I do know that GW will have to reply in some way, surely, against their usual manner. These rumours certainly will send shock waves around all players and collectors.

Let's wait and see if GW cut off their nose to spite their face. Under estimating how emotionally invested people are in their army could be a fatal mistake IMO.

Not really a Chicken Little scenario when the sky actually IS falling. Been a collector for nearly 25 years. These rumors (if even half true) would likely ruin the hobby for me. The people I played with 15 years ago are NOT the people I play with today. Why? For the most part, the ones who played with me 15 years ago did not like the changes in subsequent editions and just left the hobby. The group I play with today are all 'tournament' motivated. In other words, if the tournaments won't use it they won't. I can see my current group walking away from this game. Our best painter (who is an art teacher irl) has no compunction against selling his beautiful armies when he no longer plays with them (as happened with his 40K collection). If my current friends walk away I am left with nobody to play with as we don't have a local game store within an hour drive that supports the hobby.

So Darkmark, I understand and share in your semi-despair. I have been generally depressed about Warhammer since Nagash came out.

[Red...]

After reading through these rumors, all I can really say is that words escape me.

It will be the end of an era, which started nearly roughly a quarter of a century ago. A real shame.

Hopefully they will make it all work. For now, I'm on a hiatus from Fantasy anyway. When I return, the dust should hopefully have settled and it will all be working fluidly. Hopefully.

[Diobarach]

I am just going to post a summary of what has been posted on Faeit 212. Not one of the most reliable sources, but does bulk out some of the rumours.

via a very solid source on Faeit 212
Let me give you some confirmation:
The setting is being completely overhauled - true.
The concept of a huge chunks of the world in a sea similar to the warp from 40k - true.
Faction reduction to 6 - true


As for how it interacts with the current rules.
9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.

So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).

You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.

You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."


All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.

Support will be towards the new book, new setting, however, with End Times being in the past. Viable, but not current.

Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).


These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.

These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).

As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.

They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th, they will just be more limited eventually, the same as the end time models will not be available forever, the same as XYZ model is no longer available (just with a shorter life span than previous experienced). I mean... you can't get albion models anymore either, but that campaign was before people whined on the internet, so I guess that's why no one's complaining.

This will allow for more new models, as contrary to common belief, the storage and rejuvenation of these templates takes a lot of resources which can be instead dedicated to new ones.


On the topic of round bases. The latest version I saw used round bases, but units had the option of ranking up to receive the typical bonuses. To rank up using round bases, it is intended to use new movement trays which have circular cuts to hold the bases of the appropriate size.

Nothing stops you from (and in many ways you are encouraged to) maintain unit formation the entire game. But you don't have to. Note that throughout all of Warhammer Fantasy, changing width/depth was an option, it's just rarely seen.

So to summarize - you can skirmish, but it's in your interests to rank up for different reasons, like shield walling before a charge for instance. You can alternatively always hold a formation and move the way we're all used to.

----

This will be a very big change. It is not because GW doesn't care about its old players and just wants to attract new ones. It is not to fill a void that will come from the fading of Lord of the Rings (which will remain in stores and be supported for a long time due to the agreement with New Line Cinemas).

It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company. It will give everyone the opportunity and hopefully inspiration to do something new, but without invalidating everything from the past. It is opening room for creativity, not closing doors.


Yes, army books will eventually feel too out of date to play, but that's the same with any new edition. And new Army Books will typically allow people to recreate what they're "used to" it just might not be the most effective thing they could do with their new book.

The new faction are basically the opposite of warriors of chaos, but good the way chaos marines are the opposite of space marines but evil (in terms of broad tropes, I really hope this doesn't spawn some kind of debate about the morality of space marines).

Lastly, nothing stops you from just playing 8th, and ignoring 9th the same way some people ignore End Times. Just understand that unlike Storm of Chaos which was post-production looked at as an "alternate timeline" where the clock was turned back to right before it took place for the purposes of the setting, the End Times are real, and 9th will begin where it left off.

This 'source' seems surprisingly coherent, they are certainly trying to defend what's coming.

[Wrathbaby]

These rumours are scary I almost started a lizardman army for christmas. Although I bought blackguard instead. If I find out they aren't usable in 9th I will not be a happy camper >:(

[flatworldsedge]

Red... said it well and briefly above.

Just wanted to drop this link to one of TD's posts where he shared some of the old White Dwarf DE articles.

http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=75944&hilit=+Nostalgia

For many of us you look at that article, and through a haze of nostalgia you briefly touch your childhood... I get this rush of snapshots, remember agonising over whether to buy the shield upgrade for this unit or that, picture the stoically drafted army list in the back of a chemistry exercise book with the paper smudged and worn thin where a proposed champion oscillated between lv10 and lv15 in my deliberations, remember the smell of the lead and grey foam opening my first blister pack having queued outside the new Hammersmith GW store to take advantage of the 3 for 2 opening weekend deal after badgering my parents to drive half way into London with a dog eared token from White Dwarf, staying late in deserted classrooms to wage war on dark vinyl desktops with the chairs piled in the corner and everything dragged together, the drone of vacuums drifting by as weary cleaning staff stalked the corridors, and the vast tactile wash of a million memories...

So when there's uncertaity about how much of that journey will be relevant or recognisable come the summer, I'm kind of surprised how moderate the response is!

[T.D.]

For many of us you look at that article, and through a haze of nostalgia you briefly touch your childhood... I get this rush of snapshots, remember agonising over whether to buy the shield upgrade for this unit or that, picture the stoically drafted army list in the back of a chemistry exercise book with the paper smudged and worn thin where a proposed champion oscillated between lv10 and lv15 in my deliberations, remember the smell of the lead and grey foam opening my first blister pack having queued outside the new Hammersmith GW store to take advantage of the 3 for 2 opening weekend deal after badgering my parents to drive half way into London with a dog eared token from White Dwarf, staying late in deserted classrooms to wage war on dark vinyl desktops with the chairs piled in the corner and everything dragged together, the drone of vacuums drifting by as weary cleaning staff stalked the corridors, and the vast tactile wash of a million memories...

That article gets me in the feels too

[CitizenKhaine]

.... I won't buy another new model until 9th is released. My wife will be happy....

I will be following this approach too, and my wife will be thrilled as well

[Amboadine]

For many of us you look at that article, and through a haze of nostalgia you briefly touch your childhood... I get this rush of snapshots, remember agonising over whether to buy the shield upgrade for this unit or that, picture the stoically drafted army list in the back of a chemistry exercise book with the paper smudged and worn thin where a proposed champion oscillated between lv10 and lv15 in my deliberations, remember the smell of the lead and grey foam opening my first blister pack having queued outside the new Hammersmith GW store to take advantage of the 3 for 2 opening weekend deal after badgering my parents to drive half way into London with a dog eared token from White Dwarf, staying late in deserted classrooms to wage war on dark vinyl desktops with the chairs piled in the corner and everything dragged together, the drone of vacuums drifting by as weary cleaning staff stalked the corridors, and the vast tactile wash of a million memories...

That article gets me in the feels too

Ah yes, the joy of 2 & 3ed. Still have the rulebook and army lists.
Those choice between 5-10-15-20-25 heroes were the subject of many a discussion at the back of the classroom, when we weren't trying to sneak in just another 5 minutes of WFRP instead.

Bygone age, never to be seen again with the current GW approach of zero interaction with their customer base. Across most fora the is currently an impending sense of doom at what the future may bring us.

I am not going to say I do not have some trepidation at what is to come, the concept of 'bubblehammer' with relentless limited time launches is not one I particularly like. However I will most certainly buy the new edition, read it, play a few games and then make a decision on where to go next.

If GW have any sense of what is going on, it would most certainly be in their best interest to jump on these rumours early. On the day before a major book release, there now seems no excitement behind it and the hype and build up has all but disappeared.

A proportion of their customer base is now refusing to purchase anything further until there is some clarity on the future. I have lived through units becoming obsolete before (Zoats / Beastmasters / Storm of Chaos units, I am looking at you) and although it is not a great feeling, you get over it and move on and find a use for them as proxies or fillers. There is a massive difference however in ones entire army becoming obsolete.

All it would take is a statement reassuring players that they are not invalidating armies, bases are remaining square, and although they are taking the game in a new direction there is still room for those of us who enjoy mass ranks, rather than skirmishes. But I really do not believe that they will care one iota, blindly confident in the fact that they will attract a new younger player base with the new edition regardless of the fact that they do not advertise and would have potentially disassociated themselves with the main source of their player recruitemnt avenue, word of mouth, by alienating the veterans of the last or multiple editions.

[Deadsun]

I agree with your points there so much there Amboadine, and have seen so many changes in the past. Till now i have moved on any enjoyed the new stuff from each version, but i too really do not like this idea of bubbles and what worries me most about this is the scale of the retrenchment is something i have never seen before.

I play warhammer with a small group of very dedicated mature gamers that have invested so much in the armies that they like, these armies include ogres, lizardmen, tombkings and dwarves. Now while my elves may lose a bit of flavour this is nothing compared to what is coming the way of the rest of my guys here and it looks like we all stand to lose a lot in this rumoured new setting and system. Of course being dedicated and mature gamers we dont have to put up with this and can just play older versions of the game ourselves and just use older rule sets and even adapt them ourselves.

GW may look at us and say 'so be it, you all have massive armies so why do we need you'. However we are the guys that teach new people down our club how to play, we are people that get our kids into playing, we are people that put a lot of money into elaborate conversions made from multiple kits and terrain, the guys who buy models specifically for campaigns. We may not be buying core troops for an army any more but we spend tons in their shops and get others doing the same and our motivation for this comes from being a group that can enjoy their game together.

Its up to GW if they want our money and custom, while we are not likely to get into other fantasy games, we have the resiources and will nto simply diengage from the newer version of warhammer if it is just going to be a deminished form of what was there before. Inorder to keep me as a player of a new edition Warhammer needs to give a compelling and interesting setting for all members of my core gaming group. Slightly polished rules in terms of game play simply does not make up for completly butchering the setting and sticking one finger up to half my closest friends.

just dont get me started on round bases!

[Jolemai]

Is there any point on expanding our collections now?

[flatworldsedge]

... I really do not believe that they will care one iota, blindly confident in the fact that they will attract a new younger player base with the new edition regardless of the fact that they do not advertise and would have potentially disassociated themselves with the main source of their player recruitemnt avenue, word of mouth, by alienating the veterans of the last or multiple editions.

Yeah - you don't use the word "otiose" in your annual report (when describing the need for customer research) unless you are really keen to revel, to wallow in the fact that you don't care what people think.

I wish they understood.

"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

[direweasel]

Keep in mind two things, everybody:

- These are all rumors. If it's not in a GW publication it's too early to panic.

- There is NOTHING that keeps you from playing your existing army using existing rules forever. People still play 2nd Ed AD&D. It's not like GW releases a statement and all your materials suddenly burst into flames because they're obsolete. If you have a group of guys you play with, that doesn't have to change. Granted, it's going to be tough to grow and expand that group of guys, but it doesn't have to instantly cease to exist either. GW hasn't supported Blood Bowl in ages, and yet I go to multiple Blood Bowl tourneys every year, many of them upwards of 50 participants.

[Amboadine]

Yeah - you don't use the word "otiose" in your annual report (when describing the need for customer research) unless you are really keen to revel, to wallow in the fact that you don't care what people think.

I am led to believe it will be the half year report tomorrow, so will be interesting to see how that reads.

[Beastlord Rakarth]

I probably spent over $500 dollars last month in order to start a Dark Elf army. I played Dark Elves back in 4th Edition but had never fleshed out the army. I love the aesthetic of the new sculpts, especially the Cold Ones; in fact, the Cold Ones Knights are probably the main reason for wanting to start a Dark Elf army.

I've assembled ten Dreadspears and one Darkshard, but haven't touched any models since I first read the rumors on Warseer. The wind is just out of my sails now. I'm left wondering what to do. Do I continue assembling them and fall back on 8th Edition, which will most likely be dead soon, or other games systems such as Kings of War? How much time will I have to purchase some additional units in order to round out the army? Since Elves are guaranteed to be one of the factions, should I just wait six months for 9th Edition and use whatever bases are used for that edition? I'd imagine that Elves will still have spearmen/melee infantry, archers, and cavalry, so I can certainly find use for Dreadspears, Darkshards, and Cold One Knights...maybe. But that's a long time to wait.

Very depressing, as the Warhammer setting was perhaps my favorite fantasy setting. The historical parodies and somewhat generic elements made it great.

[Gidean]

A proportion of their customer base is now refusing to purchase anything further until there is some clarity on the future. I have lived through units becoming obsolete before (Zoats / Beastmasters / Storm of Chaos units, I am looking at you) and although it is not a great feeling, you get over it and move on and find a use for them as proxies or fillers. There is a massive difference however in ones entire army becoming obsolete.

All it would take is a statement reassuring players that they are not invalidating armies, bases are remaining square, and although they are taking the game in a new direction there is still room for those of us who enjoy mass ranks, rather than skirmishes. But I really do not believe that they will care one iota, blindly confident in the fact that they will attract a new younger player base with the new edition regardless of the fact that they do not advertise and would have potentially disassociated themselves with the main source of their player recruitemnt avenue, word of mouth, by alienating the veterans of the last or multiple editions.

QFT! Zoats and Beastmasters? How about the Empire Warwagon? Pygmies for Lizardmen armies. How about the Skaven Doomwheel which was absent for TWO editions of that army book before making a reemergence? As far as armies...how about Chaos Dwarves? Or the entire Dogs of War armies? Or Squats in 40K. My oldest son had those.

I have no faith that they will keep us (Veterans...grognards) in mind. They are like a bunch of juvenile delinquents gleefully setting fire to all we love. That's how I feel about EoT. I imagine the boardroom of Games Workshop resembling something from a scene out of the movie Gremlins after they were fed past midnight.

[Calisson]

via a very solid source on Faeit 212
Let me give you some confirmation:...

This 'source' seems surprisingly coherent, they are certainly trying to defend what's coming.

I have the same feeling that is it coherent.
And coherent with GIANT 40k/WFB Rumordump

[Daeron]

via a very solid source on Faeit 212
Let me give you some confirmation:...

This 'source' seems surprisingly coherent, they are certainly trying to defend what's coming.

I have the same feeling that is it coherent.
And coherent with GIANT 40k/WFB Rumordump

But two rumours beings consistent doesn't mean they are true. From what I gathered, some of these rumors come from the same source...

[Amboadine]

Thanks for sharing that link Calisson. Interesting read regardless of the truth.

[Daeron]

I find it suspicious that the "new" rumours come with claims that some of the stuff was already said before and posted for months.. a reference to the link Calisson posted.

The rumour mill is inconsitent. Numerous books have been claimed to have rules "with 9th edition in mind". Just before ET everyone was convinced of that, and pointing at random facts for proof. '9th edition will ...' You can almost search our forum on those terms alone.
Over the course of a few days, everyone is convinced whole armies will disappear and round base/skirmish rumours which have been abandoned over a year ago are suddenly brought back "like, see.. It can still happen!"

BTW, I should mention I have heard from a source that is consistent and reliable that a new Malekith kit is being made and gets artwork. He's being restored by Alarielle. This is some of the artwork:


Pardon my rant.

[Calisson]

The kind of pic I woulnd never have imagined to see in D.net!
I fully support Daeron's cautiousness.

The link to the giant rumor was already posted on Apr 13, 2014.
What I found interesting is how complementary these rumours are.
In April, rumour about game mechanics.
Now, rumour about fluff and model policy.
They make sense together, with Daeron's caveat reminding us that they are just rumours.

In case these rumours were found to be true, I find some positive outcomes:
- GW dares to reinvent its original core business, rather than to let it slowly dust into oblivion. Bad for our old timer's habits, but bright prospect for future generations.
- New business model makes sense, once it has reached its permanent stage. Too bad for some collections, but good for future newcomers.
- High consistency in closing the gap with WH40k, both in rules and in fluff. Like it or not, it is good to help gamers to swap from one to the other.
- The incredible buzz around End Time proves that there is some interest.

Besides that, I will bitterly regret the loss of WH roots in real world history, geography and legends.
If confirmed.

[T.D.]

- High consistency in closing the gap with WH40k, both in rules and in fluff. Like it or not, it is good to help gamers to swap from one to the other.

[Ming]

I still expect 9th ed to retcon all ET events and start again where 8th begun.
Exactly as GW did with Storm of chaos.

Basing a strategy on newcomers only, pissing off the existing veterans of the hobby, would put GW on par with Malifaux and other competitors.
Shall a young lad starting anew choose WH skirmish game, or Warmachine, or Kings of War??!!
I wouldn't bet my money on Nottingham crew....

[Red...]

A part of me does wonder whether GW is deliberately over fanning the rumour mill in order to create exaggerated and distorted fears about massive changes. Then, when they make a number of smaller (yet still significant) changes, the existing player base will be so relieved that no one will gripe about the actual changes made. For example, lets say that GW compresses its range of books down to 10 rather than 15. Ordinarily that would be received with great disgust and vehemence. But if everyone thinks that they were going to reduce them to 6, then 10 would be welcomed as a positive rather than a negative. Still, that's all just abstract thinking, who really knows what will happen.

The only humour (arguably) from the whole debacle, if it goes ahead, is that GW were able to make one final passing stab at the poor Wood elf player base, by releasing their long, long overdue book and refreshed miniature range about as close to the demolition date as they could reasonably manage. You can just imagine the folks in Nottingham splitting themselves with laughter at the poor, ignorant, and much neglected Asrai gamers who had finally believed they were getting the loving they deserved, only to have the entire game system scrapped underneath them as soon as they expended huge quantities of cash on the new book and figures.

Oh GW, oh just GW. Someday I'll yell at you, as soon as my warp bubble bumps into yours.

[Makiwara]

At least the Asrai won the civil war Red, they gave us that at least.