Black Guard and Executioners best support?

[Red...]

you want to be all about CC. and you have a lot of cav but your main CC units are infantry. This will mean your CC troops cant get in to combat at the same time as the rest of your army.

I'm struggling to follow the logic here a bit. You don't have to move the maximum distance with your cavalry every turn...in fact, it's quite usual for cavalry to advance slowly when needed, using their potential charge range as a deterrent rather than an active option. Also, cavalry units are often used on the flanks: if fielded in sufficient numbers then they can overwhelm the enemy's flanking forces and turn back to hit the enemy's main infantry blocks in the flank or the rear, at the same time as your infantry hit those same blocks in the front (a fairly standard encirclement strategy).

the way I see it, you should consider dropping infantry for cav, such as a cold one bus and a warlock bus. Keeping your lores. Or go for a more infantry based list on light and heaven magic supported by heavy shooting, RBT shades and dark riders.

I disagree, I think he has the balance nicely tuned here. He can't really add much more infantry, as he has two large horde units and they take up a lot of table space, even before accounting for terrain. I'm not sure why a Cold One bus would be more effective than an elite infantry horde unit - it would be less vulnerable to some kinds of enemy warmachines and missile fire, but more vulnerable to other kinds of enemy warmachines and missile fire.

I can't comment much on light or heaven as lores - never used either. I still endorse metal and life for the reasons stated.

[Killerk]

Well like I said these are details,
as to the first point, if your cav is not moving at its potential speed (rushing at all cost is always bad), But slaging behinde infantry is wasting its potential IMHO.

And as to the second point
a cav bus is more fragile to missile fire true, but it also is in combat much faster.

Well I have tried using a l4 on metal in past years, but the great majority of the games she was a disappointment, a l2 support caster on metal is nice to have. To me life is easily countered by an experienced opponent. Also it has no redundancy, so its an all or nothing approch, and when you get nothing you risking a loss of a hoard... that is a lot of points to bet on a spell going off. With the two lores also have a common flaw, apart for one spell in each casting (you opponent is going to try to dispel) your found with the dilemma of what to cast. And the important spell is a plain dice off. It is also the reason I don't like dark magic, its obvious what you need to concentrate on dispelling.

Also it has a rather weak shooting phase considering the point investment. As darkshards are way to costly comparing to what they actually do. Early game they aren't in range, alt mid gamy you want to be in combat. To me its a waisted potential. That is why I recommend shades and RBT's eventually more DR's. As they lack the darkshards drawbacks.

And again these are just details, the list is lacks a some manoeuvrability for my liking, but its nothing major.

Tell me how you first few games went with the list.

[Venomblades]

I will be sure to let you know how my games go.

As for the darkshards, it's my attempt of clearing chaff off the table if my fast cav or Bolt throwers fail. Also, darkshards can whittle down units, especially against units such as goblins with poor toughness. I'm aware darkshards arent great against most things, but still, i wanted some missile elements in my army. Also, its a minor distraction that my opponent has to worry about, not forgetting its a nice bunker for my Sorceress.

I have considered busing Dark riders, basically spending my whole 600 point allocation of core into dark riders with obviously throwing a sorcerer on a steed. But, i'm still new to warhammer and i've tried to write a list with a strong element to cover all aspects of StrengthvsToughness.

I have considered cold one knights, say a unit of 10 (at least), but when i look at my special choices they are expensive and i really think Black guard and executioners are superior.

I think my playstyle is very unothadox, i seem to take units, ie Black guard, as no one really uses them, but in my eyes they make the perfect anvil unit and their stay power is unreal. I'm also aware witches are brilliant, especially the damage output, but i HATE, i say again HATE how easily they die and i want reliability instead of 'get them in there and SLAy as much as i can before they get powned'. i Understand the CoB is their safeguard, but thats a solid 190 points let alone having to throw a death hag in there.

I also think i might be better suited to High elves as the armies REAL power is within their CC units, with martial prowess and all. I think i'm trying to replicate this too much in my DE lists, but like everyone always sais, DE infantry are amazing, but T3 accross the board is a joke and they ALL die in droves (Hence why i'm taking metal).

All your advice is amazing and im loving the discussions as its giving me real insight into the DE abilities.

P.S. U think Black Guard is a bad choice?

[Red...]

Well like I said these are details,

I think "details" may be the wrong word. "Minor quibbles" perhaps?

if your cav is not moving at its potential speed (rushing at all cost is always bad), But slaging behinde infantry is wasting its potential IMHO.

I think you're missing quite a few potential cavalry strategies then. For example, a tin can strategy (cavalry stays level with missile troops, ready to charge if any enemy gets too close, thus acting as a nasty deterrent, giving your missile forces longer to damage the enemy) has definite merit in some circumstances. Similarly, the encirclement strategy I outlined earlier relies on cavalry moving faster than infantry on the flanks, in order to double back once they have defeated their counterparts and smash into the enemy main blocks from the flank and/or rear.

Well I have tried using a l4 on metal in past years, but the great majority of the games she was a disappointment,

I've had the opposite experience. Could you elaborate?

To me life is easily countered by an experienced opponent

True to a point. First, it is nightmarish for a non-seasoned opponent (it took me a good few games before working out the dispel sequence needed to avoid being completely overwhelmed by it). Second, the counter to life (primarily: dispel throne of vines at all cost) can in itself be worked around (e.g. cast throne of vines, let it be dispelled, then cast flesh to stone at the T5 level, which still makes the target unit pretty nasty).

darkshards are way to costly comparing to what they actually do. Early game they aren't in range, alt mid gamy you want to be in combat. To me its a waisted potential.

Again, it all depends on how you use them. Darkshards are awesome for destroying enemy light units and for acting as a nice denied flank unit. I tend to go for one, so I do think that venomblades' choice to take two may be sub-optimum, but they do definitely have a role when used correctly.

That is why I recommend shades and RBT's eventually more DR's. As they lack the darkshards drawbacks.

While bringing their own drawbacks to the table. Shades are horrendously fragile, even by dark elf standards (worse save than an RxB and just leadership 8 (while probably being out of range of the general or BSB), for nearly 50% more points cost per model than darkshards). RBTs are essentially autokilled in melee (whereas darkshards can be quite resilient, particularly when in two ranks with shields and close to the BSB and/or general) and autodie to initiative test causing spells.

[Mikael.k]

As for the question on black guard, I think they are awesome! Still, few opponents run headlong into a big unit of them. So in my experience, they rarely kill anything major, but they dont give up their points too easily either. You really need to force opponents into combat with them, making that the better alternative. One way of achieving that is by having strong ranged threats, for example, 4 bolters, light council, multiple doombolts etc.

[Killerk]

Well like I said these are details,

I think "details" may be the wrong word. "Minor quibbles" perhaps?

Possibly .

if your cav is not moving at its potential speed (rushing at all cost is always bad), But slaging behinde infantry is wasting its potential IMHO.

I think you're missing quite a few potential cavalry strategies then. For example, a tin can strategy (cavalry stays level with missile troops, ready to charge if any enemy gets too close, thus acting as a nasty deterrent, giving your missile forces longer to damage the enemy) has definite merit in some circumstances. Similarly, the encirclement strategy I outlined earlier relies on cavalry moving faster than infantry on the flanks, in order to double back once they have defeated their counterparts and smash into the enemy main blocks from the flank and/or rear.

1. Well my philosophy is never to brake an advance, not change game plan mid battle, this is the easiest way to ruing your victory.
2. The game last only 6 turns running back and forth usually means your scrambling, and if you are it means your loosing the game, do to previous mistakes.
3. I don't believe that a unit of light cav can save anything that endangers a unit of shards.
4. The problem with encircling and all that is your opponent has time to deal with forward deployed cav, before the infantry behide them become a threat.

Again, its the way I like to approach my battles, and its not the only viable way ... but it is they only right way

Well I have tried using a l4 on metal in past years, but the great majority of the games she was a disappointment,

I've had the opposite experience. Could you elaborate?

1. Well vs many armies metal is ineffective.
2. The spells draw sooooo many dice the magic phase is a simple dice off, your opponent knows your casting around 2 spells, and he knows which he must stop, also the spell selection is poor.
3. for the above I have gotten the most out of the lore on a support mage, where I choose the insanely good default spell, and something nice if I roll it. This way against say skaven OnG or WE I'm not worried most of my spells are useless.

To me life is easily countered by an experienced opponent

True to a point. First, it is nightmarish for a non-seasoned opponent (it took me a good few games before working out the dispel sequence needed to avoid being completely overwhelmed by it). Second, the counter to life (primarily: dispel throne of vines at all cost) can in itself be worked around (e.g. cast throne of vines, let it be dispelled, then cast flesh to stone at the T5 level, which still makes the target unit pretty nasty).

Actually I do the opposite, I let the throne pass, thus gaining a dice advantage, so I can easily stop the rest. then in my dispel phase I get rid of the throne. This limits my magic phase but it totally and utterly shuts down my opponents phase.

darkshards are way to costly comparing to what they actually do. Early game they aren't in range, alt mid gamy you want to be in combat. To me its a waisted potential.

Again, it all depends on how you use them. Darkshards are awesome for destroying enemy light units and for acting as a nice denied flank unit. I tend to go for one, so I do think that venomblades' choice to take two may be sub-optimum, but they do definitely have a role when used correctly.

but I got the impression that Venomblades prefers an aggressive play style, rather to a defensive counter game.

That is why I recommend shades and RBT's eventually more DR's. As they lack the darkshards drawbacks.

While bringing their own drawbacks to the table. Shades are horrendously fragile, even by dark elf standards (worse save than an RxB and just leadership 8 (while probably being out of range of the general or BSB), for nearly 50% more points cost per model than darkshards). RBTs are essentially autokilled in melee (whereas darkshards can be quite resilient, particularly when in two ranks with shields and close to the BSB and/or general) and autodie to initiative test causing spells.

Shades on paper cost more, but on the table top, their shots inflict much more damage then the same amount of shards (point wise), and are more difficult to pin down. Also shades preform other tasks that shards cant.
As to the RBT's, 4 RBT's cost 280 points, 2 units of shards cost 380.
as to combat potential, yes shards can hold their own in CC, but they are not as effective in the shooting phase as their counter parts, so either take something better at CC, or better at shooting. Shards are more universal, but they cant go toe to toe with combat units and they also loose the shooting war.

Again they can be effective if played right, but I don't see them in an aggressive list. And in a defensive list well there are other better choices, but I might consider using some. Their defensive capabilities are nice, but their main advantage is being durable when your opponent reaches back field. I rather not allow him to reach the back field, and thus don't see the need for such a unit. Others might, and there is nothing wrong with that, their play style is different.

Every units/tactic/strategy has its pros and cons, Venomblades suggested an aggressive list, and IMHO cav buses and limited shooting is more effective for that play style.

Mikael.k you are right, intensive is good to have, but it gives the initiative to your opponent, as he can choose to rush you or go after your intensives. With a cav army your dictating the flow of the battle, and your opponent is reacting. IMHO the first is easier to play, but it relies on hope dice don't fail you and your units are correctly deployed, while the second you have to think 2 steps ahead, and hope your opponents streak of luck doesn't brake your assault.

[Red...]

1. Well my philosophy is never to brake an advance, not change game plan mid battle, this is the easiest way to ruing your victory.

With all due respect, that's a terrible philosophy! Yes, a plan should not be abandoned lightly, but you must have flexibility when playing and be willing to respond to events as they happen. Stubbornly clinging onto a set battle plan when it has gone wrong can only lead to defeat.

4. The problem with encircling and all that is your opponent has time to deal with forward deployed cav, before the infantry behide them become a threat.

I feel like we are playing with different armies. Dark Elf Infantry can still march 10", which is quite a powerful distance. If your enemy wheels his central force round to fight your cavalry, then your infantry smashes into him from the flank. We're not dwarfs, with their 6" march, we're dark elves. Our infantry is a lot faster than you seem to think!

1. Well vs many armies metal is ineffective.

Nope, you've either not looked at the lore sufficiently or have adopted a common misconception that hangs over from the old 7th edition rulebook. The three best spells in lore of metal are not related to the armour level of the enemy at all. Glittering scales gives either one friendly unit in 24" a +2 armour buff or all friendly units within 12";final transmutation kills all models in the target enemy unit on a 5+ (or 6+ for characters), ignoring saves, and then causes stupidity tests for all units within 12" of the target unit on their next turn (irrespective of whether you caused casualties or not); enchanted blades gives a friendly unit within 24" +1 to their to-hit rolls, enchanted weapons, and armour piercing (okay, that last part is anti-armour, but the other two benefits are not); transmutation of lead reduces several attributes that includes armour but also includes WS and BS, plague of rust affects enemy armour - but unless you are fighting against enemies with no save at all (quite rare), a -1 to their armour save is still useful (changing a 5+ save to a 6+ save permanently is a very tasty benefit). That leaves golden hounds of ghenna and searing doom, both of which are specific anti-armour spells. However, I've found that most enemy armies do have at least one unit or model that is heavily armored (even if it is only a single monster with a 3+ or 4+ save) that these spells can work very nicely against. Moreover, if you do go up against a heavily armoured army, these two spells are killer and game-winning.

but I got the impression that Venomblades prefers an aggressive play style, rather to a defensive counter game.

You're muddling tactics with strategy. You can play a very offensive strategy while also employing localized defensive tactics. I do it all the time when playing - my main force is very aggressive, but I use RxBs defensively to avoid the enemy outflanking me while I outflank him and other such shennigans. Offense vs defense is not always a zero sum game.

[Killerk]

1. Well my philosophy is never to brake an advance, not change game plan mid battle, this is the easiest way to ruing your victory.

With all due respect, that's a terrible philosophy! Yes, a plan should not be abandoned lightly, but you must have flexibility when playing and be willing to respond to events as they happen. Stubbornly clinging onto a set battle plan when it has gone wrong can only lead to defeat.

Not when its a good plan. And if something goes terribly wrong you need major luck to turn it around, if you start scrambling that lucky brake might be wasted on something minor, if you go for the win then you'll get it.

4. The problem with encircling and all that is your opponent has time to deal with forward deployed cav, before the infantry behide them become a threat.

I feel like we are playing with different armies. Dark Elf Infantry can still march 10", which is quite a powerful distance. If your enemy wheels his central force round to fight your cavalry, then your infantry smashes into him from the flank. We're not dwarfs, with their 6" march, we're dark elves. Our infantry is a lot faster than you seem to think!

Still 10 and 2d6 is not 14\18 with best of 3d6. And if some one turns his unit to face light cav and exposes his flank to infantry... well it doesn't matter what you do you ll still win.

1. Well vs many armies metal is ineffective.

Nope, you've either not looked at the lore sufficiently or have adopted a common misconception that hangs over from the old 7th edition rulebook. The three best spells in lore of metal are not related to the armour level of the enemy at all. Glittering scales gives either one friendly unit in 24" a +2 armour buff or all friendly units within 12";final transmutation kills all models in the target enemy unit on a 5+ (or 6+ for characters), ignoring saves, and then causes stupidity tests for all units within 12" of the target unit on their next turn (irrespective of whether you caused casualties or not); enchanted blades gives a friendly unit within 24" +1 to their to-hit rolls, enchanted weapons, and armour piercing (okay, that last part is anti-armour, but the other two benefits are not); transmutation of lead reduces several attributes that includes armour but also includes WS and BS, plague of rust affects enemy armour - but unless you are fighting against enemies with no save at all (quite rare), a -1 to their armour save is still useful (changing a 5+ save to a 6+ save permanently is a very tasty benefit). That leaves golden hounds of ghenna and searing doom, both of which are specific anti-armour spells. However, I've found that most enemy armies do have at least one unit or model that is heavily armored (even if it is only a single monster with a 3+ or 4+ save) that these spells can work very nicely against. Moreover, if you do go up against a heavily armoured army, these two spells are killer and game-winning.

Apart from transmutation, which can be good. but its the obvious must stop. The rest are not game changers.

but I got the impression that Venomblades prefers an aggressive play style, rather to a defensive counter game.

You're muddling tactics with strategy. You can play a very offensive strategy while also employing localized defensive tactics. I do it all the time when playing - my main force is very aggressive, but I use RxBs defensively to avoid the enemy outflanking me while I outflank him and other such shennigans. Offense vs defense is not always a zero sum game.

[/quote]

When playing all out aggressively, you opponent doesn't have time for out flanking or any other shennigans. Its all about initiative, if you force your opponent to react, you can control the flow of the battle.

[jeffman]

From a noobs point of view im finding your discussion very interresting. I am wondering what a tipical list looks like from the two of you, and what kind of general tactic u employ

[Red...]

Not when its a good plan.

This sounds like something out of Soviet strategic planning 101. The big master plan where everything runs like clockwork and nothing fails. It just doesn't work like that. When that sorceress you were relying on to support your troops explodes from a miscast, or your opponent rolls an incredibly unlikely double one for his leadership test, allowing a crappy unit to hold up your central hammer, or when he rolls 7 sixes on 9 dice to avoid a major unit from taking any real damage (I've had that happen to me before), or when a million and one other things go wrong - you have to adapt. Otherwise your plan rolls on, but because an essential part did not work, the plan is now unachievable, and doomed, and leads to defeat. Not a good idea.

Apart from transmutation, which can be good. but its the obvious must stop. The rest are not game changers.

Glittering scales turns a 5+ save into a 3+ save. That's incredibly powerful. To put it into 40k perspective: it converts your imperial guard flak armour into space marine power armour. Your executioners/blackguard/warriors/etc go from dieing in droves to being incredibly durable. It's no dwellers below, but strategies do not always need to rely on the bigger killer spells, some of the best approaches involve helpful buffs that make your broader strategies more viable.

When playing all out aggressively, you opponent doesn't have time for out flanking or any other shennigans. Its all about initiative, if you force your opponent to react, you can control the flow of the battle.

You're perfect worlding this and a golden rule of strategy is that the world is not perfect. If you do action A, your opponent does not necessarily do action B. Let's say you are up against an army of dark elves and he has brought tons of superfast MSU forces - you can be as aggressive as you want, he's getting around your flank - or over your head - if he really wants to. Your opponent does not always do what you want or expect him to do. It's commonsense. A unit of RxBs who hang back a bit give contingency strength: you can shoot that unit of pesky harpies to death, or hold up that unit of medium strength cavalry who stormed around the flank in an unlikely manner for a turn or two (due to steadfast).

From a noobs point of view im finding your discussion very interresting. I am wondering what a tipical list looks like from the two of you, and what kind of general tactic u employ

Thanks for the comment - it's good to know our arguing has some value and doesn't just look like petty point scoring and nit picking I will try to post a sample list for me soon.

[flatworldsedge]

From a noobs point of view im finding your discussion very interresting. I am wondering what a tipical list looks like from the two of you, and what kind of general tactic u employ

+1 Really enjoying it. The right to an opinion, and to argue a point, is what separates us from beasts and Space Marines.

[Killerk]

Red is a very experienced general and he makes very valid points, but my play style and game approach is different then his thus it leads to hopefully and interesting and enlightening discussion.


I m typing from my phone... so sorry for the lay out.

1) I try to take into account that things can go wrong. Failed LD or amazing dice rolls always happen. So this is something normal to me, and must be accounted for when list building, upon deployment of troops and during movement. If it is not your just waiting for disaster to strike. I have many battle reports where I decided to risk it, some were good choices, some less fortunate, others proved disastrous in consequences. And the ones that cost me the game almost always were the ones I didn't have a contingency plan for.
a motto I try to live by when planning out a game... you cant think of achieving victory unless you can evade defeat.

[Killerk]

2) taking smaller casualties is nice, but again its not a game changer. Same as enchanted blades. they are mild buffls and very situational. 3+ armor is nice but it means little when your being struck at S6.
so lets say you have a l4 your playing vs WE or rats, where rolling for you spells your at a disadvantage as 1/2 of your lore is useless, and the probability of rolling 3 of the more useful spells out of 6 possible is extremity low. and even if you do they are not game changing spells so they wont change all that much, as all lores have buffing spells.
The situation is a little different if you have metal on your support l2. if you get an well armored opponent you roll your spells and you might get a useful one and the other you switch to seering doom. And your happy. if faced worth a lightly armored army you still roll your spells and you might get a useful one, if not then you still have warlocks and your main caster. And this is the reason I run light or death magic on my main caster. those lores always have usful spells. With light I run heavens as the signature spell combos nicely with the lore. with death I try to use metal and use warlocks for their MM to make up for the lack of unit damaging potential of death. This is a more efficient use of the lore in my opinion.

[Killerk]

I run a MSU force my self, so that situation would not scare me. But having the tables turned I much rather face a army that holds back and lets me maneuver.
The thing is that and aggressive force also have support units, but their roles are a little different. In such a situation support needs to live long enough for your main fore to brake through. Redirecting and dealing to keep enemy forces off you back. So even if your opponent goes around you, you dont really care because you have nothing there. By the time they are done with your support units, their man line is over whelmed, and your main combat troops now need to face what is left.

But by incorporating RBT's shades and DR, to your force, you can fulfill the role you had for your shards, like shooting harpies and alike. But shades and DR act as re directors/speed bumps. Something your shards cant do, as they are far away. The only thing that acts similar to shards are RBT's. With the exception that they can shoot down solo characters and big things, also they are much much cheaper. So an opponent going after them has to send multiples of their worth to reliably kill them. and that means your assault troops are facing smaller opposition.

[Killerk]

Dreadlord on Dark Steed 277 Pts
General; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Giant Blade
Dawnstone
The Other Trickster's Shard

Supreme Sorceress on Dark Steed 310 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of Death
Talisman of Preservation
Sacrificial Dagger

Master on Dark Pegasus 213 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Cloak of Twilight

Sorceress on Dark Steed 125 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Metal

Master on Dark Steed 135 Pts
Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak
Ogre Blade
Luckstone

9 Cold One Knights 290 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician

9 Doomfire Warlocks 225 Pts
Magic Level 2

3x7 Dark Riders 150 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Shield; Musician

5 Dark Riders 110 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Shield; Musician

6 Dark Riders 130 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Shield; Musician

5 Harpies 75 Pts

5 Shades 90 Pts
2ndWeapon

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower 70 Pts

Models in Army: 68

Total Army Cost: 2500

[Clockwork]

Nice! I take it characters are on Dark Steeds purely for adaptability, even though they are going in the Knight unit?

Sorceress sits in the Dark Riders? Doesn't that cause potential problems with the Sac Dagger and limited models?

[Killerk]

Sorc jumps from unit to unit if needed.
Heroes go where needed, depending on opponents, If low armoured targets they can even go in DR, if enemy has some armour, they go in to warlocks, so they don't bounce off armour.

Well the dagger can be swamped for scroll, but I like the extra dice when you fluff an important casting. It's there to be used 1-2 per game, more frequent usage may cause problems.

[Venomblades]

Well guys,

unfortunately i got to the tourney, set up and was pumped and ready to kill, but my opponent bailed out last minute so i have been re-assigned an opponent. He is either bringing dwarves (oh.....great) or Ogres.

Will keep you posted on how i do if anyone is interested.

thanks.

loving the discussion by the way people

P.S. I have been giving CoK's a big think over lately and depending on how this list works i might look at getting a unit of 10 in.
If i was to make changes i would perhaps consider removing Black Guard for CoK's and Darkshards for Witches.....THATS IF.........my Black Guard aren't as good as what i'm expecting them to be, although i do have high hopes for the BG. Views on CoK's anyone?

[Venomblades]

Just to clarify on my recent attention to CoK's, i watched a fellow DE at the club smash so many units into the ground with CoK's and i was stupidly impressed.

[Killerk]

ASF S6 reroll to hit, and to wound, since you wound most things on 2+. Plus 2 attacks form Co. I like to have light magic with mine, because a unit of 5 dishes out 25 attacks, and it is brutal for 150 points + spell.

[Red...]

Well, I usually play 3k, but I've tweaked the list down to 2,500 to have it as a comparable amount to Killerk. There are a few gaps as a result, but hopefully you can get a feel for the kind of army I field. In a nutshell, the usual plan involves:
- One flank ("A") is comprised of the hammer: the witches, cold one knights, several chariots, and one of the two fast cavalry units.
- The center ("B") is comprised of the anvil: the warriors and supreme sorceress.
- The other flank ("C") is comprised of the denied flank: the Darkshards and the other fast cavalry units; possibly a chariot too.

Flank A moves forward fast and hard, smashing its way through the enemy opposing it and either running on to destroy the enemy's backline (if fighting against a gun or missile line) or roll up the enemy's exposed flank (if fighting against a melee army), or both (if viable). The Center B advances to the middle of the board, then holds its ground, flinging out nasty magic spells while refusing to budge against even the nastiest of enemy assaults. Flank C delays and obfuscates the enemy's advance on its flank, preventing it from impacting the game until my hammer flank and central anvil have obliterated the bulk of the enemy's army. When the denied flank does finally get beaten back, my triumphant center and hammer forces flow through into combat against the enemy's flank on that side, overwhelming them and winning the game very convincingly. The reaper bolt thrower sits somewhere in the backline, chucking out some unpleasant pain for lone enemy fliers and fast cavalry, without representing a sufficient points sync for the enemy to actually bother dealing with it (and if they do, it usually involves an investment of way more than the 70 points they destroy by killing the lone bolt thrower).

Some other items of note: the assassin goes with the witches to give them a 2+ ward save against magic missiles and the like. He is the only character we have who can take the ring of hotek while also going in a unit of witches without getting lynched. The Dark Pegasus Master is used flexibly to deal with enemy warmachines, fast cavalry, and small units of skirmishes and archers etc. The supreme sorceress takes metal because it allows her to both buff my army with spells such as glistening scales and enchanted blades, as well as cause my opponent grief with spells such as final transmutation and searing doom (searing doom is particularly handy for taking on any heavily armoured foes that the witches might struggle against).

Finally, I try to play flexibly and respond to events on the table. Things can, and do, go awry, with often bizarre results. In one game, for example, my denied flank won on its side of the board, while my hammer got defeated - sometimes it doesn't matter how much you stack the deck, the dice gods are fickle fiends. In that example, I adapted my plan and won the day. I wouldn't have done so had I remained excessively wedded to the original plan and been unwilling to deviate from it as necessary.

Lords:
Supreme Sorceress (general), level 4, lore of metal, dispel scroll, and 4+ ward save: 290 points

Heroes:
Death Hag on Cauldron of Blood (BSB): 275 points
Master on Dark Pegasus with Cloak of Twilight, lance, heavy armour, shield, and seadragon cloak: 188 points
Assassin with Ring of Hotek and additional hand weapon: 142 points

Core:
40 Dreadspears with full command: 390 points (supreme sorceress goes here)
12 Darkshards with musician: 154 points
5 Dark Riders with shields, RxBs, and musician: 110 points
21 Witch Elves with full command: 261 points (assassin and cauldron of blood go here)

Special:
3 Cold One Chariots: 345 points
5 Cold One Knights: 150 points
1 Reaper Bolt thrower: 70 points

Rare:
5 Warlocks: 125 points

Total: 2,500 points.

Models in the army: 96

So, as you can see, it's a very different list and strategic approach to Killerk. I imagine his works very well - he is an excellent veteran general with lots of experience. But I've found mine delivers very reliably too. It's one of the joys of dark elves, that we can play so many different styles and still all be winners

[jeffman]

Cool guys ! Verry insightfull.

Some quick questions: killerk what is you tipical answer vs hordes? Except purple sun. especially larger s4 t4 units like saurus or orcs?.

Red, what do you do when someone floods your denial flank with hammers? Like sort of the same as your hammer side. And dont you run into problems wwith your witchelves like being redirected? Your chaf killing darkshards are on the denial side

[Red...]

Red, what do you do when someone floods your denial flank with hammers? Like sort of the same as your hammer side. And dont you run into problems wwith your witchelves like being redirected? Your chaf killing darkshards are on the denial side

Thanks jeffman - two very good questions

Q1: My opponent flooding the denial flank with hammers can be dealt with in two ways. First, I can throw a unit or two of fast cavalry over there to delay and disrupt things further. Second, I can wheel the bleaksword anvil unit around some in order to provide a solid facing against the emergent flanking threat.

Q2: Well, lots of units on my hammer flank can be used to erase chaff: fast cavalry are very useful for this role, as they can intercept and counter the redirecters before the witches arrive. Alternatively, charges by small frontage, high impact forces - such as the cold one knights (who can be run in two ranks if needed) and chariots (who have the added advantage of 4 RxB shots each per turn too )- can often get the job done. The witches don't usually have to worry about frenzy charges (as they have a re-rollable leadership 9 for that test) so, if it comes to it, can stop and wait for another of my units to remove the chaff and then continue onwards to charge their intended target the following turn.

Finally, it's worth adding that this is a good example of why flexibility is important. I do follow a general plan, but if my opponent does really deploy in a way that looks like it is going to cause me a monster headache to pursue my usual general battle plan, they I deploy and play a different approach (exactly which depends upon my opponent).

For a 3k army, I would probably look to bulk everything up a bit (I dislike having minimum size for the job units), as well as add some extra fast troops (more dark riders, shades) etc.

[Killerk]

Some quick questions: killerk what is you tipical answer vs hordes? Except purple sun. especially larger s4 t4 units like saurus or orcs?.

Well it depends on the rest of the army. If its a death star type horde, then I don't engage it at all, using he double flee, over and over again. Until I kill every thin my opponent has, then If I decide i have enough time and units left, I shoot it for a turn or two, and turn 5/6 I pile all my hitting units in to wipe it out. If not, I make sure it never reaches combat. Opponents may complain that this type of game is frustrating, but its their fault they took such a list.

If they have say 2 hordes, then its divide and conquer or isolate and destroy. again I kill all support units, redirect on of the units, and combo charge the other, once it is dead I do the same to the other.

hmmm... I think my list is a bit better.
I have an clear advantage in the Movement phase
An advantage in the Magic phase (thou minimal).
Shooting advantage is on my side. Your 23 rxb's and 1 RBT to mine 37 rxb's and 1 RBT
Combat wise its difficult to asses.
Your list has more bodies, but over half of them have a defensive nature.
its your 11 drops to my 10 + scout. Depends on the dice roll for deployment.

Still my list has a clear advantage in 2 out of the 4 phases. and in the other 2 nether of us has an clear advantage. Assuming we are of equal skill/luck my list should win.

[jeffman]

I must say i am also tend to lean more towards killerk's list, i'm not so fond of the spearman block and i don't own chariots so i have no experience with them. I do however like the witchhorde to deal with hordes. I'm not convinced about the effectivity of killerk's list to deal with that.

For instance a lizardman list with 2 skink skirmish units, 2 saurus blocks, 1 templeguard block with slann and some monsters. I can see you struggle with that. his chaf can shoot yours, and with your low body count every kill counts, his magic rivals yours. And if he keeps his lines in check u will have a dificulty with devide and conquer. U cant chaff up all the monsters and block to prevent countercharges when u multi charge one of his blocks, also stubborn templeguard, end his chaff screwing up your movement.

this of course could be my inexperience talking, so eventhough i lean towards killerk's list, how would you deal with that kind of lists. Orks and goblins can also do such lists with cheap horde n shootinh. Especially with fanatics coning out of units. If they hit, with your bodubody count every hit counts.

And one last question, i dont understand the odd unit sizes of the darkriders.

This is not criticisme, i just want to understand and learn