Starting from scratch

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Starting from scratch

Post by Hano »

I am thinking of starting to play WHFB and was interested in the DE.

I was wondering if anyone could please give me some advice as to how to design a 2000 point army to make it as cost effective as possible (i.e. if I only have X dollars to spend, what would you get but for it still to be competitive). Should I base it on buying the warhost? Thanks in advance.
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by Amboadine »

To keep it cheap yet competitive you really need to be looking at a small evasive all cavalry force. However if you have never played the game before, this would be a brutal introduction and probably ill advised as it can be very fragile.

How to envision your army to look? Big blocks of troops, small units, a mix, as this will help give you a little more guidance.

With the changes in the End Time series recently the army options have expanded dramatically, across all three elven armies.

There is a new edition of WHFB due out in May, that may or may not change the meta of the game dramatically. This may be a good entry point for you, as everyone will be learning the new edition.
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by Thraundil »

What Amboadine said is a very strong point. The general rules are going to be revised completely, and the 'rumours' say that big changes are coming, including several models simply not "being there" in the new rule set. However the DE army book is rather "young" at little over a year, so I have this trust that our units will make it though ;)

The warhost is generally not "competitive", at least in my opinion and based on my experiences and playstyle - which is again ehavily influenced by the local meta ;) it would help us in advising you, if you say how much you know of models, units and stats... Do you for example know what armor saves, ward saves and T / W means, and so on :)

The power units in our army book is, listed by their (in my personal opinion) power:

1. Pegasus masters
2. Warlocks
3. (mounted optional) supreme sorceress / mounted dreadlord (pegasus optional but very very good)
4. Bolt Throwers
5. Dark Riders

These five/six choices alone can build you a power army to be reckoned with. It will be difficult to play at first since the movement phase is both the most difficult but also the most critical phase, but once learned, the rewards will be great.

Optional support choices include shades and harpies.

Example rough 2000 point list if I where to build an ultra competitive balls to the wall list:

Pegasus dreadlord with various good magic items, popular loadouts are cloak of twilight + dawnstone OR ogre blade, other tricksters shard and talisman of preservation. ... sus-Knight <-- buy this guy and a cold one knight bit from a bit seller or ebay. You can buy dark pegasus wings on the DE section if you want them to look more badass, but the standard bret wings work just fine.

Lvl 4 on steed (she may be abit expensive but has so much more mileage than a lvl 4 on foot!). Buy the lvl 4 from the dragon kit as bits + a dark steed from the chariot kit as bits if you can. Alternatively buy the mounted high elf mage and say he's a turncoat ;)

Pegaus master BSB. Again, same procedure as for the dreadlord. Try to get a hold of a pretty flag and paint it super well, the battle standard should be the pride of your army ;) popular loadouts are: talisman of preservation + charmed shield (in conjuction with a cloak lord) or cloak of twilight (in conjunction with the ToP + OTS lord).

Fill your core with dark rider units. Units of 5 and maybe a single unit of 10 in which your sorceress could go in an emergency. Dark riders are so much better than all other core units that you simply cannot compare. However, if you're going to play in a comped environment, many restriction sets limit dark riders for this very reason ;) if so, add smaller units of darkshards or witch elves. In general, dont bother with standard warriors in this edition!

For your special choices, its a no brainer. 4 bolt throwers, go go.

For your rare, look to one unit of 10 warlocks (with a mounted lvl 4) or two units of 5 (with a lvl 4 on foot). Popular lore choices for your lvl 4 is death (since warlocks come with built in magic missiles) or dark (for many many magic missiles).

This is a reasonably cost efficient starter list. I cant put a precise price on it but check the units out and see if you can manage it :)
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by T.D. »

Hi Hano,

As Amboadine has said, there is a new edition due soon.

Best to hang on till then before making any big investments. Powerful choices now like Pegasus riders could end up being superceded by other troop types in the new version.

In the meantime, there are lots of battle reports and modelling examples to inspire, and you should be safe with a few boxes of up to date miniatures like Witch Elves, Spears/Rxb, Warlocks/Dark Riders and Cold One Knights.
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by Lord Drakon »

If you want to save some money and still buy thing that will part of 80% armies I suggest:

- Corsair box ($20)
- Glade Rider box ($31)
- Glade Rider box ($31)
- Warlock box ($25)

Total: $107

Gives you
- 15 dark riders ($75)
- 5 shades ($25)
- 5 shades ($25)
- 5 warlocks ($25)
- 3 mounted characters

Total: 615 points troops +
- 385 characters
- 330 core
- 180 special
- 125 rare

1000 point army

Saves you $50 to buy a two another boxes of your choice (Cold One Knights = 150 points or Reaper Bolt Thrower = 70 points) with a lot of cool bits useful for further conversions.

It is an strong mobile competive cavarly army (and you will likely use 2 dark riders, 1 warlocks, 1 shade unit for all your other armies to come)
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by Daeron »

Listed in order of minimal points per euro.

  1. 920-920 points for 50 euros. 18,4-18,4 points per euro. Malekith on dragon
  2. 450-650 points for 45 euros. 10,0-14,4 points per euro. Sorceress on dragon
  3. 440-600 points for 45 euros. 9,8-13,3 points per euro. Dragonlord (on dragon)
  4. 160-210 points for 20 euros. 8,0-10,5 points per euro. 10 Corsairs converted to shades
  5. 80-320 points for 11,5 euros. 7,0-27,8 points per euro. Plastic Sorceress
  6. 150-230 points for 26 euros. 5,8-8,8 points per euro. 5 Cold One Knights
  7. 110-165 points for 20 euros. 5,5-8,3 points per euro. 10 Corsairs
  8. 125-135 points for 25 euros. 5,0-5,4 points per euro. 5 Warlocks
  9. 665-1225 points for 135 euros. 4,9-9,1 points per euro. Warhost
  10. 120-185 points for 25 euros. 4,8-7,4 points per euro. 10 Darkshards
  11. 275-300 points for 60 euros. 4,6-5,0 points per euro. Cauldron of Blood
  12. 150-300 points for 35 euros. 4,3-8,6 points per euro. Scourgerunner
  13. 150-230 points for 40 euros. 3,8-5,8 points per euro. 10 Black Guards
  14. 90-145 points for 25 euros. 3,6-5,8 points per euro. 10 Dreadspears
  15. 90-145 points for 25 euros. 3,6-5,8 points per euro. 10 Bleakswords
  16. 115-115 points for 35 euros. 3,3-3,3 points per euro. Cold One Chariot
  17. 160-180 points for 50 euros. 3,2-3,6 points per euro. Hydra / Kharybdis
  18. 80-130 points for 25 euros. 3,2-5,2 points per euro. 5 Dark Riders
  19. 80-120 points for 26 euros. 3,1-4,6 points per euro. 5 Shades
  20. 120-200 points for 40 euros. 3,0-5,0 points per euro. 10 Executioners
  21. 175-175 points for 60 euros. 2,9-2,9 points per euro. Bloodwrack Shrine
  22. 70-70 points for 24 euros. 2,9-2,9 points per euro. Bolt Throwers
  23. 75-75 points for 26 euros. 2,9-2,9 points per euro. 5 Harpies
  24. 110-190 points for 45 euros. 2,4-4,2 points per euro. 10 Sisters of Slaughter
  25. 110-190 points for 45 euros. 2,4-4,2 points per euro. 10 Witch Elves

However, these scores should be taken with a pinch of salt. The maximum points per model is easier to achieve for one than the other. Take, for example, the plastic Sorceress who can function as supreme sorceress just as easily and double or triple her point value. The warhost scores "low" in minimal setup (bleakswords, Corsairs, COC, COKs and not using the fleetmaster) but can easily increase its point value by making the models Darkshards, Corsairs with command, COC, COK with command and using the fleetmaster as a Master/Dreadlord on foot. The Cauldron of Blood can go many ways. The most extreme situation is to build it as a Cauldron of Blood, a Hellebron on foot and a Bloodwrack Medusa. Combined, that's a good 715 points before upgrades, but it's not likely you'll use all three in a single list.

Another note is that points/euro doesn't necessarily reflect how effective the unit or combination of units is in the game. A Sorceress or Dreadlord on dragon may give good value in terms of cost to points in the game but they require a somewhat tailored list.
Likewise Cold One Knights may prove cheap but they'll put demands on the rest of your army.

An important question is how competitive and effective you want the list to be. If you play in a fairly soft environment, then you can let the pennies rule some choices. If you need to ace the game, you may have to get creative with options and conversions if you want the biggest bang for your buck.
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by Hano »

Thanks heaps for all the advice.

Ughh...I didn't know about the rule update. Is there any easy way to learn the rules - not particularly keen on buying them if they will be out of date within 3 months!
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Re: Starting from scratch

Post by Amarel »

No-one (who can say) really knows what 9th will bring - just a couple of months ago people expected just a general update, now there's rumour of round bases and skirmishing only. I'd be surprised by the latter, but I'm just a guy on the street.

My collection is large and messy (20 years worth of Dark Elves :shock:), but If I were starting again I would pick up a few varied models to build and play around with and see what I enjoyed. I think I'd likely start with the following: 1 x Bleakswords, 1 x Corsairs, 1 x Warlocks, 1 x Glade Riders, 1 x Reaper BT. That gives you 5 x Dark Riders (converted Glade Guard using spare Dark Rider (from the Warlocks box) and Dreadspears (from the Bleakswords box) bits), 10 x Corsair (I prefer 2 x HW, but if you want to go all shooty there's probably a place for HB's), 10 x Dark Shards, 5 x Warlocks and a Master and / or Sorc on Dark Steed kit bash. That's just over £90 RRP (although note that the Reaper is out of stock on the GW site, which normally signals either a removal or a model change), which at a standard discount at an online store means all of that plus the army book for around £100 (and you'll probably want a Hydra next :twisted:).
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